Kain Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) I'm still using a Harman Kardon AVR 8500 (or AVR 8000 as it was named in the US) from 2004. I've been driving it very hard since it was new. I even used the RF-7s as "large" till 2009 because I did not have a subwoofer (but now I do and run them as "small"). I've noticed that these days when I turn up the volume very loud during movies, the sound loses its composure. It sounds like a large muddy mess. The issue is not there at lower volumes (but I am not sure even if lower volumes sound as good as they used to). Maybe it's because of the newer movies and how they are mixed? I don't know but I do know that very loud volume settings results in poor sound quality. Any ideas? Edited February 27, 2015 by Kain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstrickland1 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Just a thought but maybe some capacitors or other components have drifted out of spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted February 27, 2015 Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2015 Not familiar with that model HK but when I had an HK AVR55 (55 wpc) I noticed when I drove the HK to really loud volumes, the clarity of the speakers began to suffer. The amp section just ran out of gas at higher volumes. When I upgraded to an Onkyo 703 (100 wpc), I could crank it and it would maintain clarity at ridiculous levels. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Maybe your hearing is failing 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) I'm still using a Harman Kardon AVR 8500 (or AVR 8000 as it was named in the US) from 2004. I've been driving it very hard since it was new. I even used the RF-7s as "large" till 2009 because I did not have a subwoofer (but now I do and run them as "small"). I've noticed that these days when I turn up the volume very loud during movies, the sound loses its composure. It sounds like a large muddy mess. The issue is not there at lower volumes (but I am not sure even if lower volumes sound as good as they used to). Maybe it's because of the newer movies and how they are mixed? I don't know but I do know that very loud volume settings results in poor sound quality. Any ideas? Are you using the same speakers, same room, same distance as before? How many channels? Most AVRs lose maximum power capacity as the number of channels used is increased, but yours can probably put out 100 wpc with 5 channels, which is more than enough for RF7's efficiency. How sensitive are your other speakers? I've heard rumors (here on the forum, somewhere) that the Reference line presents a difficult impedance picture to the amp, but I don't know. I remember Consumers Reports saying (in the '70s ??) that amps lose undistorted power capacity with age, but I don't know if that is for real. Movies vary. Some recordings are crappy. Movies that produce very loud, but very clean & detailed sound in our HT are: The Grey (the event toward the beginning), Pacific Rim, The Impossible, and Star Trek - Into Darkness. For tracks that aren't so invested with special effects, but have good, potentially loud, orchestral sound, with lots of detail, there are Fantasia 2000 or Amadeus. You might try some of these to see how they sound. The mixes are good, IMO. Edited February 27, 2015 by Garyrc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Just a thought but maybe some capacitors or other components have drifted out of spec. Very well could be. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 I'm still using a Harman Kardon AVR 8500 (or AVR 8000 as it was named in the US) from 2004. I've been driving it very hard since it was new. I even used the RF-7s as "large" till 2009 because I did not have a subwoofer (but now I do and run them as "small"). I've noticed that these days when I turn up the volume very loud during movies, the sound loses its composure. It sounds like a large muddy mess. The issue is not there at lower volumes (but I am not sure even if lower volumes sound as good as they used to). Maybe it's because of the newer movies and how they are mixed? I don't know but I do know that very loud volume settings results in poor sound quality. Any ideas? Are you using the same speakers, same room, same distance as before? How many channels? Most AVRs lose maximum power capacity as the number of channels used is increased, but yours can probably put out 100 wpc with 5 channels, which is more than enough for RF7's efficiency. How sensitive are your other speakers? I've heard rumors (here on the forum, somewhere) that the Reference line presents a difficult impedance picture to the amp, but I don't know. I remember Consumers Reports saying (in the '70s ??) that amps lose undistorted power capacity with age, but I don't know if that is for real. Movies vary. Some recordings are crappy. Movies that produce very loud, but very clean & detailed sound in our HT are: The Grey (the event toward the beginning), Pacific Rim, The Impossible, and Star Trek - Into Darkness. For tracks that aren't so invested with special effects, but have good, potentially loud, orchestral sound, with lots of detail, there are Fantasia 2000 or Amadeus. You might try some of these to see how they sound. The mixes are good, IMO. My speakers are the RF-7s, RC-7, and RS-7s. Nothing as changed since I first set it up in 2004 other than adding a subwoofer and changing my RF-7s from "large" to "small" with a crossover of 80 Hz. I was watching Cloverfield today and it *seemed* to be better? Older the movies, the better it is? I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Older the movies, the better it is? I don't know. The 2008 Cloverfield it is not "old." New, middle aged, old, and very old movies, and how they sound, at least in my HT: In my experience, Blu-rays of movies made since about 2000 are generally well recorded, but often make great demands on your system, especially in the bass, and especially in the LFE department. There is often material as low as 20 to 30 Hz, sometimes 10 to 20 Hz, and, reportedly, there is sometimes a signal as low as 5 Hz, put there by idiots, and all can peak as loudly as 115 dB (Full Scale, or FS for the subwoofer channel, acording to movie industry standards) if you run your movies at calibrated Reference level. Reference level can be established for your room and speakers by Audyssey. We usually run our movies at about 5 dB below reference, and occasionally have almost blown the walls off. Is your subwoofer up to it? Blu-rays of movies made from about 1980 to about 2000 are mostly well recorded, aren't as demanding of your sound system, due, in part, to less emphasis on dynamics and less use of the infernal bass machine. Blu-rays of movies made from 1953 to about 1980 (the golden age of magnetic soundtracks) might, or might not, have been recorded with state of the art magnetic recording equipment, better than most reel to reel tape, even at the professionsl level (up to 30 ips), and almost surley better than 15 ips tape (the home standard was 7.5 ips). Many of these magnetic soundtracks didn't make it into the theater, and were mixed down to horrible optical (or not too bad optical, with the new Dolby 35 mm process toward the end of that era; 70 mm still used 6 magnetic channels, late in the game with Dolby processing, and sometimes advertized as "Dolby Stereo"). Now, with all of the above, if the disc people went back to the original sound elements, we would expect Blu-ray transfers with magnificent sound, right? As far as I know, it hasn't happened yet. On BD, most of these movies lack the bass they had in the theater (if you saw a mag print). A few them are distorted, for reasons passing all understanding. The lack of bass may be because the bass, as well as the dynamics were enhanced (turned up) just before the final mix, and our Blu-rays are often taken from the original elements, a few generations before that mix. The bass in Ben-Hur on BD is moderate, but the lumber fracturing was ultra loud in the theater (people jumped), and the thunderstorm and simulated (suggeted) earthquake shook the concrete floor of the Coronet in San Francisco, and actually created a breeze in the theater. The dramatic potential of the audio was about the same as with modern movies, but it didn't get on the Blu-ray. Sound movies made before 1953 are what I would consider "old." Blu-rays of them can be good visually, especially if the filmmakers used some of the great Black and White stocks they had. The color and sharpness in the Blu-ray of The Wizard of Oz is amazing. The sound is a different story. It was virtually all optical, and not "High Fidelity," although those words were used in some movie credits of the era. It was all mono, except for the multi-channel optical tracks (4, in some prints) for the "Fantasound" versions of the original Fantasia, with about 90 sound locations in the theater (Peck, Scientific American early 1941). It would be great to see a new transfer of that, once most of us are equiped with Dolby Atmos. Silent movies constitute what I would call "very old." Some Criterion discs are very good, and you won't have to worry about the sound! Edited February 28, 2015 by garyrc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violetgrey Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 As a computer tech I hear this question a lot. The answer is; yes. As the capacitors age and dry the power supply in the amp or receiver will begin to shed some of its rated output. This will not necessarily change just because you paid more for the device. Most good manufacturers will use PSU's that perform beyond the rated specs so this loss in power, over time, will not be as noticeable. However there is no way around the physics of this. The PSU's in the amps may be refreshed by replacing the caps This can be done if you have the skill and knowledge to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Just taking those babies apart requires skill not to damage anything. Plus a supply of special tools. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Check all of your connections - they may be corroded or loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 I think the real problem/issue is the sound starts to compress once I reach very loud levels which is why I was wondering if amplifiers lose power with age. Movies with "a lot of sound" seem to show it more, like the Transformers movies. Are newer movies louder because I can hear it far more with newer movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) .... Movies with "a lot of sound" seem to show it more, like the Transformers movies. Are newer movies louder because I can hear it far more with newer movies. I doubt that they are louder, i.e., the dialog is probably mastered at about the same level, but they certainly have more dynamic range ... or the filmmakers of recent times use more of the available dynamic range. All speakers (so I understand) produce a little compression, but most Klipsch (or JBL, etc.) have less of a problem that way than many other brands. If your AVR is clipping or otherwise grossly distorting at dynamic peaks, that might be what you are hearing. What is the brand and model subwoofer you added? Edited March 4, 2015 by garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 It's a Seaton Sound SubMersive. By the way, I can watch/listen to the pod race from Episode I at very high volumes and have less of the issue I am mentioning here. Noticed it is mostly with newer movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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