Jim Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I am going to be upgrading my turntable soon as I am starting up my record collecting again. I am looking to spend about $500.00 for a turntable and will also be adding a phono pre-amp which is not included in the pricing. My receiver has the phono input, but I've read the phono pre is a better way to go. My question is how much of a difference is there in sound quality from the 2 different type of turtables,and what are the differences in the two types? Also, any recommendations on turntables? It doesn't have to be new either. The turntable I have now is a 80's cheapo Yamaha, but I added a 2M Red cartridge to it,and a cork mat. The mat will most likely be transferred to the new table once I purchase it. I will be ultimately running it through tubes,and the phono pre is most likely going to be a Cambridge Audio Azur 551P or 651P if I do go the coil route,unless tehre ias a better alternative and pricing is under $200.00. My music tastes are classic rock and dance/club music more than other types, so I am still leaning towards the 2M Red. Is there a better cartridge to use that's under $200.00 than the 2M Red? I was told the Blue would not be as good as it's geared more towards classical music by Needledoctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 There is a lot to discuss within your post. First there are more than two types of tables. If your current el cheapo is an early eighties direct drive and works well then for now stick with it. Your budget will not allow any significant upgrade and the money better spent on vinyl. At this level and really until you go a lot farther up the scale, stick with moving magnets. MCs are so much more expensive both in the short and the long run. Again, these are first impressions from your post. More specific information and questions may lead to more specific advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I followed a very unscientific method...I looked at my preamp - it had a MM phono stage - whalla! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) I guess another question would be then, at what pricebreak does SQ and build quality get noticeably better with TTs? Is let's say $100.00-$750.00 range typically going to be similar? Is there going to be that much of a difference after let's say a $750.00 TT? And if I were to stay with my el cheapo and matched it against with lets say a Technics that's in the price range or an Audio technica are the positives going to outweigh the negatives? In this range is it going to be more with the cartridge vs the arm and table itself? I know a few people commented that the Yamaha P-300 was an OK TT for the time frame and it deosn't seem to have any issues at all playing for me. But it is an all plastic for the most part unit and I don't know if the SQ would get much better with a metal arm. I did wrap the arm with dampening material, and was also told to try a very small amount of bluetac where the cartridge and arm get hooked up to also quiet it down even more. I'm also getting a record grip to add to the set up. Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill in this price range. I followed a very unscientific method...I looked at my preamp - it had a MM phono stage - whalla! Yes Earl, but I think your TT and mine are worlds apart, and the preamp I'm looking at does both types of carts. Edited March 2, 2015 by Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) Its not as cut and dry as at what price point do things begin to sonically improve. I set my personal criteria at that 1,000$ mark (750-1200$) because at that price point you begin to see hardwoods, more solid plinths and more importantly... better adjustability with which you are able to extract more details from your recording. Its not like other things in the sonic chain where you plug it in and it immediately sounds better... it takes time and effort to make a 1,000$ table sound better than a 500$ table. As a matter of fact, if you dont know what you are doing, you can make it sound worse because of its increased adjustabilities... if that is even a word. What you are paying for in a higher value table is higher quality construction, proprietary engineering that may OR may not yield better sound and more adjustability/customization Edited March 2, 2015 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I followed a very unscientific method...I looked at my preamp - it had a MM phono stage - whalla! Wow, another oppotunity to spend more. Get a high dollar SUT and plug it in to the aux input!!!! Now get another table one with MM (HOMC) and the other with a MC (LOMC). Now you can drive yourself crazy dailing both in and see if you can hear the difference. Rock on one and female vocals on the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I followed a very unscientific method...I looked at my preamp - it had a MM phono stage - whalla! Wow, another oppotunity to spend more. Get a high dollar SUT and plug it in to the aux input!!!! Now get another table one with MM (HOMC) and the other with a MC (LOMC). Now you can drive yourself crazy dailing both in and see if you can hear the difference. Rock on one and female vocals on the other. The enemy is us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 So basically the less adjustments able to be made, which would be in the lower ended models, the cartridges and mats as well as dampening are the only real concerns to really have to deal with once the cartridge is balanced etc. I read someone elses post last night that was talking about fluids on the rear of the arm or something like that, and that seemed to be a big headache. Not as simple as I am typing, but less of a headache with something with MC and more adjustments to remember to adjust or not adjust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) So am I somewhat correct when I say music SQ will be limited on MM vs MC if both TT's are same brand and set up with same preamps? If all things are equal in set ups,speakers,amps, pre amps, wiring, will MC give a wider range for the music? And if so, how much of a difference? Is it going to be like MP3 and HD music? Edited March 2, 2015 by Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The thing is to match the cartridge to the arm. Don't be so worried about mc or mm. Once you get there you can start nit picking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) The difference is this in my opinion which is decidely prone to mistakes: MM = moving magnet which creates an electrical impluse into a stationary coil MC = moving coil which creates an electrical impulse into a stationary magnet The MC output is smaller therefore requiring a 'stronger' phono stage preamp but the stylus (everything that moves) is lighter which makes the MC stylus follow the groves in the vinyl more accurately. A match must be be made between arm and cartridge. This is beyond my smarts that is why they have folks that are smarter. Edited March 2, 2015 by USNRET 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I am going to be upgrading my turntable soon as I am starting up my record collecting again. I am looking to spend about $500.00 for a turntable and will also be adding a phono pre-amp which is not included in the pricing. My receiver has the phono input, but I've read the phono pre is a better way to go. My question is how much of a difference is there in sound quality from the 2 different type of turtables,and what are the differences in the two types? Also, any recommendations on turntables? It doesn't have to be new either. The turntable I have now is a 80's cheapo Yamaha, but I added a 2M Red cartridge to it,and a cork mat. The mat will most likely be transferred to the new table once I purchase it. I will be ultimately running it through tubes,and the phono pre is most likely going to be a Cambridge Audio Azur 551P or 651P if I do go the coil route,unless tehre ias a better alternative and pricing is under $200.00. My music tastes are classic rock and dance/club music more than other types, so I am still leaning towards the 2M Red. Is there a better cartridge to use that's under $200.00 than the 2M Red? I was told the Blue would not be as good as it's geared more towards classical music by Needledoctor. from what you like to play as far as records - a good condition Technics Sl1200 should be just fine and cartridges are so plentiful , I would say a good Shure will do the job - they last more than the average Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The difference is this in my opinion which is decidely prone to mistakes: MM = moving magnet which creates an electrical impluse into a stationary coil MC = moving coil which creates an electrical impulse into a stationary magnet The MC output is smaller therefore requiring a 'stronger' phono stage preamp but the stylus (everything that moves) is lighter which makes the MC stylus follow the groves in the vinyl more accurately. A match must be be made between arm and cartridge. This is beyond my smarts that is why they have folks that are smarter. Overall mass is overall mass. What you are talking about is compliance which has nothing to do with mc or mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) the MC cartridges are very fragile , with classical music , MC cartridges can shine , as for rock - club dance music MM is better - Edited March 2, 2015 by Randyh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The difference is this in my opinion which is decidely prone to mistakes: MM = moving magnet which creates an electrical impluse into a stationary coil MC = moving coil which creates an electrical impulse into a stationary magnet The MC output is smaller therefore requiring a 'stronger' phono stage preamp but the stylus (everything that moves) is lighter which makes the MC stylus follow the groves in the vinyl more accurately. A match must be be made between arm and cartridge. This is beyond my smarts that is why they have folks that are smarter. Overall mass is overall mass. What you are talking about is compliance which has nothing to do with mc or mm. Is my simplistic explanation of differences between MC and MM correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 As far as I know, yes it is correct. MM = moving magnet which creates an electrical impluse into a stationary coil MC = moving coil which creates an electrical impulse into a stationary magnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 A simpler explanation The difference is this in my opinion which is decidely prone to mistakes: MM = moving magnet which creates an electrical impluse into a stationary coil MC = moving coil which creates an electrical impulse into a stationary magnet The MC output is smaller therefore requiring a 'stronger' phono stage preamp but the stylus (everything that moves) is lighter which makes the MC stylus follow the groves in the vinyl more accurately. A match must be be made between arm and cartridge. This is beyond my smarts that is why they have folks that are smarter. Overall mass is overall mass. What you are talking about is compliance which has nothing to do with mc or mm. Is my simplistic explanation of differences between MC and MM correct? let 's continue - the MC cartridges are very expensive 1000$ and more -plus you need a step up transformer -if you do not use one - the sound will be barely audible - if the tip is damaged or worn out - one needs to rebuid the cartridge or do a custom re-tip - another 500$ or more - the Good Quality MM cartridges cost 200$ and up -and dont require a step up transformer - if the tip requires replacement - you buy a new stylus -50$ to 100$ - 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) if the tip requires replacement - you buy a new stylus -50$ to 100$ do all MM cartridges allow stylus replacement? I think not. Nor does MC. Sad story: In the mid '80s I paid $750 for a MM cart and while dusting the table after one play I hung the stylus on the back on my hand and bent it. Pizzed, I took the cart and threw it as far as I could. Later I learned that I could have had the stylus replaced for 10% of the original price. Edited March 2, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I have yet to see a mm that does not allow for stylus replacement by the user. The whole beauty of mm is that because the mm's are attached to the stylus, you essentially get a new cartridge every time you replace the stylus assembly. The cartridge body lasts and lasts. MC's have to be sent off for a re-tip. It is more expensive and you are out of business during that time without a back-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) I have yet to see a mm that does not allow for stylus replacement by the user. The whole beauty of mm is that because the mm's are attached to the stylus, you essentially get a new cartridge every time you replace the stylus assembly. The cartridge body lasts and lasts. MC's have to be sent off for a re-tip. It is more expensive and you are out of business during that time without a back-up. OT, to be clear for me does that include HOMC? I have an Ortofon 2M Black. Edit: Just realized what I said, HOMC is not MM. Edited March 2, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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