Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 16, 2018 Moderators Share Posted February 16, 2018 49 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: I added the underlined part to help everyone decipher what you have really been saying all along. Who wouldn't want a computer to do something if it could do it better than we could? This is a non-sequitor. In the meantime, we have reality, which seems to be everyone's counter-point - another non-sequitor. How many thousands of posts will it take to see this obvious circle-jerk? It will take until they develop and app that can identify a non-sequitor and respond with a non-sequitor of its own. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Non sequitur? I would have replied sooner but I was waiting for my car to restart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 59 minutes ago, T2K said: A circle jerk is self-perpetuating. To a point, then everyone falls asleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 16, 2018 Moderators Share Posted February 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Mallette said: I really don't get this any more than I understand why trains are under human control. Simple, cost. 15 hours ago, Mallette said: Capt. Haynie figured that out about as well as it can be handled at Sioux City. Incredible flying...and should be enshrined in code. Dave I think it was Haynes, like the underwear brand. Power loss wasn't the real issue on that landing/crash. The tail engine had an uncontained catastrophic failure (due to human error in the inspection/maintenance process). When the fan blades came apart pieces severed all 3 hydraulic lines of the 3 independent hydraulic systems (triple redundancy). The plane had a loss of control. No rudder, no alerions, no stabilizer. It had no way to turn, and no way to climb or descend. That all had to be done with differential power (to turn, and it seems they could only turn in one direction), adding power to fly level and reducing power to descend. It was indeed an extraordinary feat of flying and responding to an emergency. How would you even begin to program that into an autopilot. Even if you could, it is location dependant. They had not flaps or spoilers, and they had no way to flair. The only way to program and automate a system for the situation is to design something capable of duplicating "seat of the pants" flying. 2 hours ago, Mallette said: Programming their reactions into a flight system would certainly improve the odds over the average pilot when these circumstances arise again Yes, that will come in very, very handy the next time that exact make, model and type aircraft has a total loss of power and happens to be over the Hudson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 4 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said: In the meantime, we have reality, which seems to be everyone's counter-point - another non-sequitor. How many thousands of posts will it take to see this obvious circle-jerk? The only thing I could THINK you mean is that there is no AV system that is better at most things than a human, and if so, that pure BS and hardly reality. On open roads, I wouldn't even pay much attention to several available semi-AV systems. And it won't be thousands of posts before one that can handle a flat, or the majority, of situations much better than humans. Until then, I am good with the semi-AV currently allowed by law and that it will, as insurance, DOT, and the industry all agree will start to have a positive impact on death and injury commensurate with their numbers on the road. Bear in mind ONE vehicle so equipped protects both the vehicle behind as well as the one to the front and the numbers are growing daily. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 2 hours ago, dwilawyer said: Simple, cost. Certainly. Cost of human engineers is high and long term. Cost and personal losses of these terrible accidents is untold millions. No idea what this will cost to implement but it is criminal not to get it done. It's a fixed cost that will amortize. Dead people don't amortize. 2 hours ago, dwilawyer said: How would you even begin to program that into an autopilot. Clearly doable unless you feel like it was pure luck. Haynes applied sensory input and logic. While hardly competent to do this sort of thing, I have designed software to use sensory input and uses logic. It not only can be done, but eventually will be done because "if it can happen, it will happen." Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 17, 2018 Moderators Share Posted February 17, 2018 6 hours ago, Mallette said: Certainly. Cost of human engineers is high and long term. Cost and personal losses of these terrible accidents is untold millions. No idea what this will cost to implement but it is criminal not to get it done. It's a fixed cost that will amortize. Dead people don't amortize. Did you just wake up from a 100 year daze? It's simple. The cost of the lives, "the untold millions" is less than the cost of putting in positive train control. That's how it works in a "free market" economy. The only thing can change that is regulation or subsidy. It is pretty basic economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 38 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: he only thing can change that is regulation or subsidy. It is pretty basic economics. Rather clinical analysis. I see it otherwise in terms of what I am willing to spend as a taxpayer against the cost in lives. If we don't have the will the will to fix this easy issue, we should simply stop doing what we are doing. Cost is too high. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted February 17, 2018 Moderators Share Posted February 17, 2018 44 minutes ago, Mallette said: Rather clinical analysis. I see it otherwise in terms of what I am willing to spend as a taxpayer against the cost in lives. If we don't have the will the will to fix this easy issue, we should simply stop doing what we are doing. Cost is too high. Dave I agree, but we are in a very distinct minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Passenger rail as a form of interstate travel is dead anyway. Amtrak has continued to operate on the same methodology as the heyday of rail as if nothing had changed. I love rail travel above all currently available methods when it comes to "getting there is half the fun" as opposed to speed, but I am a minority in that regard. Time to let it go, especially if they insist on staying with outdated models...like error-prone humans at the controls. High speed rail was a good idea 40 years ago when the rest of the world began to build them, but the advent of the AV renders that a moot point as it is far more cost effective, if slower, than these systems. Excursion trains with rolling feasts and parties using the cruise ship methodology would be a great idea, but we don't need a government owned passenger rail system for that. Time to let it go...the 12PM from Yuma has long since left the station. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 You may ignore history, but history will not ignore you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 hours ago, oldtimer said: You may ignore history, but history will not ignore you. In my case, it probably will. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mallette said: In my case, it probably will. Dave Ah ha...have you never heard that one before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 hours ago, oldtimer said: You may ignore history, but history will not ignore you. History does not repeat itself. Historians merely repeat each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Still off the mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 On 2/17/2018 at 7:09 AM, Mallette said: Passenger rail as a form of interstate travel is dead anyway. Amtrak has continued to operate on the same methodology as the heyday of rail as if nothing had changed. I love rail travel above all currently available methods when it comes to "getting there is half the fun" as opposed to speed, but I am a minority in that regard. Time to let it go, especially if they insist on staying with outdated models...like error-prone humans at the controls. High speed rail was a good idea 40 years ago when the rest of the world began to build them, but the advent of the AV renders that a moot point as it is far more cost effective, if slower, than these systems. Excursion trains with rolling feasts and parties using the cruise ship methodology would be a great idea, but we don't need a government owned passenger rail system for that. Time to let it go...the 12PM from Yuma has long since left the station. Dave Will it still be dead when we have mag-lev trains that go 350 miles per hour and can transport you 500 miles faster than you can get to the airport. Oh, and they will have special cars for the transportation of speakers. Imagine sending those La Scalas to a new home on a bed of air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 On 2/16/2018 at 7:53 AM, dwilawyer said: It will take until they develop and app that can identify a non-sequitor and respond with a non-sequitor of its own. That for some reason reminds me of an early attempt at translation software. Had to be in the first half of the 1980s based on who told me. It was English-Russian, and the ultimate test was idioms and expressions. So they gave it the English "Out of sight, out of mind." And they got back was "Invisible insanity." The advances in artificial intelligence and quantum computing are staggering and in many ways terrifying. I figure as long as they call it artificial intelligence, we are OK, but whey they start just calling it intelligence, I am moving to another dimension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, vasubandu said: "Invisible insanity." Excellent. Now we are living in "visible insanity." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, oldtimer said: Still off the mark. Fine, you are making me search my memory and my hard drive. Men make history and not the other way around. In periods where there is no leadership, society stands still. Progress occurs when courageous, skillful leaders seize the opportunity to change things for the better. --Harry S Truman Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. ---Napoleon Bonaparte History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. --Winston Churchill History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. -- Mark Twain “History, in general, only informs us what bad government is.” --Thomas Jefferson “Those who understand history are condemned to watch other idiots repeat it.” --Peter Lamborn Wilson Somewhere in there I have you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, vasubandu said: Fine, you are making me search my memory and my hard drive. Men make history and not the other way around. In periods where there is no leadership, society stands still. Progress occurs when courageous, skillful leaders seize the opportunity to change things for the better. --Harry S Truman Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon. ---Napoleon Bonaparte History will be kind to me for I intend to write it. --Winston Churchill History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme. -- Mark Twain “History, in general, only informs us what bad government is.” --Thomas Jefferson “Those who understand history are condemned to watch other idiots repeat it.” --Peter Lamborn Wilson Somewhere in there I have you. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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