Monster Power HTS 3600/AVS 2000 usefulness

[Cantilope]

Initial justification:  About a dozen years ago I lived in a house built in the early 50's.  I built a home theater using my Sunfire separates, KLFs and a pioneer elite TV.  We started having the lights flicker and dim pretty regularly whenever we had a large electrical load somewhere in the house.  It ended up getting worse and worse.  When the bass would hit the lights would flicker.  Our refrigerator motor burned out as did our drier (maybe unrelated).

 

I ended up having the house rewired and a new larger service brought in, however this was not the problem.  A contributor but not the main issue.  I know it was affecting my music.  So I purchased these units, a Monster Power HTS 3600/AVS 2000.  Totally fixed the problem and I must say worked like a charm.  Fixed the lights and bass issue and you could hear and see the voltage being rectified if the numbers where to be believed.  Apparently the pole mounted transformer in the yard was approaching 60 years old and the load from our homes pulling harder than ever.  It eventually went south, but it took a few years. 

 

Here we are now; we live in a new home with underground power and new infrastructure.  I know that these units helped protect my equipment and have certainly paid for themselves with my particular situation at the time.

 

The 3600 is a “filter” I have always looked at is a big power strip with a staggered turn on.

The 2000 is a voltage regulator, which leveled out the voltage drops that the house experienced.  We would have swings from 99 volts to 144 and I got exactly 120 on the backside. 

 

Do I still run these, is it snake oil?  I read that McIntosh actually frown on this sort of thing…  What is the consensus here?  What about in a 2-channel system?  They do put out a bit of heat so I know they are costing me money to run.  Been running on all the time for a dozen years, so one of the better MP products I have used.  Does it help or hurt?  Also there is no A/B testing its too difficult moving them in and out.  Plus I admit I might not be able to hear it.

 

FWIW, I do run 20 amp single runs from my plugs to breakers.  I also can understand the point of McIntosh that they say a well designed amp would have it's own protection.

[Schu]

I have heard, from amplifier manufacturers, that this type of thing can kill the magic in a amp (specifically class D) because the speed at which power can be delivered is slightly compromised... personally I have not found this to be true.

 

I was told by Bel Canto to not do this least I loose the magic, I did it anyway and my set up sound WONDERFUL! I run a 5400 which has two dedicated high output circuits and that may be why I have not lost anything.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Schu

[Bubo]

The power supply in the amps should have plenty of reserve for any peaks.

 

I don't think the power filters have a power buffering capacity, none that I've heard of.

 

Surge suppressors, under voltage and over voltage protection and line filtering for RF are all good things.

 

I would listen with and with out the filter units and see if you can hear a difference, which is highly unlikely.

[derrickdj1]

I use a similar type unit.  The house electrical suppy is good so, do I really need it?  I like it because I can turn on everything and the amps and speakers don't pop, sequential turning on of device and having as many things as possibel  plugged into it less the risk of ground loop hum.

 

It is also nice to see how much power you are using in watts, amps and volts.

Edited March 18, 2015 by derrickdj1

[Bryant0086]

   By your description of the devices, I would simply call it "protection." However, would you trust the 12 year-old devices more than you would your modern electrical service and electrical grid you are on ? That is the question. Do they protect your equipment against their own failure is what I am asking.  

 

  As far as McIntosh's view on it...... it is completely irrelevant. I have GREAT respect for McIntosh and the quality of the vast majority of their equipment, but them thumbing their nose up at power protection is nothing more than a marketing ploy.

 

  Bryant 

[Cantilope]

   By your description of the devices, I would simply call it "protection." However, would you trust the 12 year-old devices more than you would your modern electrical service and electrical grid you are on ? That is the question. Do they protect your equipment against their own failure is what I am asking.  

 Bryant 

 

I think the answer to this is no, as everyone seems to at least recommend a surge protector .  Sounds like you all have the same thoughts that I have had.  Seems to not do any harm and some protection might be better than none at all...

[NBPK402]

   By your description of the devices, I would simply call it "protection." However, would you trust the 12 year-old devices more than you would your modern electrical service and electrical grid you are on ? That is the question. Do they protect your equipment against their own failure is what I am asking.  

 

  As far as McIntosh's view on it...... it is completely irrelevant. I have GREAT respect for McIntosh and the quality of the vast majority of their equipment, but them thumbing their nose up at power protection is nothing more than a marketing ploy.

 

  Bryant 

I am glad I had my Monster HTS 7000 in place when we had 150v per leg in our house (thanks to PG&E having a loose wire on our house and the transformer). It took out our HVAC thermostats, and zone controllers.

Edited March 16, 2015 by ellisr63

[westom]

Light bulb intensity changes indicate a wiring or supply problem. No bulbs should be changing intensity when major appliances power cycle. Your original solution only cured symptoms - did not solve what could have also been a serious human safety problems.

ellisr63 demonstrates what can eventually happen (appliance damage) if symptoms of that problem are ignored.

What anomaly must be addressed in this new home. Modern electronics work just fine (see no internal DC voltages vary) even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. Surge are something completely different with completely different solutions.

Any recommenation (ie surge protector) without first defining an anomaly is simply reciting rhetoric from advertising. What anomaly are you trying to cure?

Surge protector at the service entrance is strongly reocmmended. Protectors adjacent to appliance do little for protecting from destructive transients. Sometimes make appliance damage easier. Sometimes create house fires. And also need protection provided by that other solution.

Edited March 17, 2015 by westom

[Cantilope]

Light bulb intensity changes indicate a wiring or supply problem. No bulbs should be changing intensity when major appliances power cycle. Your original solution only cured symptoms - did not solve what could have also been a serious human safety problems.

 

Once I replaced all the wiring in the house, including the breakers, box and had a new service installed to the pole, I didn't have many more options on my side.  I had replaced everything from the transformer to the plug to prove that it wasn't on "my side" of the service.  The Monster Power equipment was the last item I tried.

 

Surge protector at the service entrance is strongly reocmmended. Protectors adjacent to appliance do little for protecting from destructive transients. Sometimes make appliance damage easier. Sometimes create house fires. And also need protection provided by that other solution.

 

I will be adding this to the new house ASAP.

[NBPK402]

 

Light bulb intensity changes indicate a wiring or supply problem. No bulbs should be changing intensity when major appliances power cycle. Your original solution only cured symptoms - did not solve what could have also been a serious human safety problems.

 

Once I replaced all the wiring in the house, including the breakers, box and had a new service installed to the pole, I didn't have many more options on my side.  I had replaced everything from the transformer to the plug to prove that it wasn't on "my side" of the service.  The Monster Power equipment was the last item I tried.

 

Surge protector at the service entrance is strongly reocmmended. Protectors adjacent to appliance do little for protecting from destructive transients. Sometimes make appliance damage easier. Sometimes create house fires. And also need protection provided by that other solution.

 

I will be adding this to the new house ASAP.

 

Just so you know... Installing a whole house surge protector will not protect you from a loose wire to your house. I reviewed our warranty on our whole house surge protector and they explicitly say they don't cover extended over voltage (which is what we had when the connectors were loose on one of the 3 wires from the transformer). 

[westom]

Just so you know... Installing a whole house surge protector will not protect you from a loose wire to your house.

First, a short list of anomalies include harmmonics, EMI/EMC, reverse polarity, frequency variation, floating safety ground, sag, disconnected earth ground, and bad power factor. What protects from all? Nothing. Each anomaly is addressed by a specific solution. A surge protector is for earthing surges. Lights changing intensity (as described earlier) were warning that overvoltages would be increasing to destrutive levels in the future. If that symptom is ignored, then a resulting failure may cause damage months later.

Second, if a Monster did as believed, then we should see a long list of other destroyed appliances including bulbs, dimmer switches, all clocks, smoke detectors, bathroom and kitchen GFCIs, door bell, dishwasher, TVs, refrigerator, recharging mobile phone, washing machine, etc.

Should one put a Monster on all those appliances?

Third, products with a largest warranty are often inferior products. Best and least expensive solution is home insurance that is required to honor their policy.

Fourth, described was an executive summary of 'whole house' protection. Not provided were specific and essential details necessary to install it correctly.

Edited March 18, 2015 by westom

[Cantilope]

Second, if a Monster did as believed, then we should see a long list of other destroyed appliances including bulbs, dimmer switches, all clocks, smoke detectors, bathroom and kitchen GFCIs, door bell, dishwasher, TVs, refrigerator, recharging mobile phone, washing machine, etc.

So can I extract from this that you recommend that I do not continue using the Monster equipment as it didn't do anything back then and it isn't doing nothing now?

 

Please provide the detail missing about the Whole House protection.  I plan to research this and any help you can provide would be appreciated.

[Bubo]

 

Second, if a Monster did as believed, then we should see a long list of other destroyed appliances including bulbs, dimmer switches, all clocks, smoke detectors, bathroom and kitchen GFCIs, door bell, dishwasher, TVs, refrigerator, recharging mobile phone, washing machine, etc.

So can I extract from this that you recommend that I do not continue using the Monster equipment as it didn't do anything back then and it isn't doing nothing now?

 

Please provide the detail missing about the Whole House protection.  I plan to research this and any help you can provide would be appreciated.

 

 

Update: I just spent a few minutes cleaning this up so my teachers and parents wouldn't feel like total failures if they stumbled across this post.

 

 

Short version

 

First fix the house and verify that the service is adequate, then go from there.

 

• Most builders use the cheapest switches, wall sockets and circuit breakers that will pass code or not, see what you have and probably replace all of them, TOTL are only a few dollars each.

• If you are experiencing problems with the electricity in the house, and don't know how to trouble shoot and repair it, or have a friend who can help you; do your homework, check references and get an electrician in to diagnose and repair the service. It's better and cheaper than burning to the ground or an extended stay at the hospital.

• Insufficient service to the house can be a problem, this may require a new breaker-distribution box and better breakers, why not use the best since your life depends on it.....your stereo too.

 

Once the house service is installed and functioning correctly, and quality switches and sockets are installed, there are a number of threats to your equipment and appliances that can be managed or minimized by adding various types of protection:

 

• Lightning hits can be highly destructive.
•  
• Under voltage is bad news too, and can have lots of under voltage spikes.
•  
• Surges through the electrical service from the city power can be a problem
•  
• Inadequate or minimal grounding is frequently a problem
•  
• Improper grounding, frequently a problem.
•  
• Defective or high requirement appliances can be a problem
•  
• Creating ground loops by using multiple outlets for your stereo gear

 

Some protection solutions:

• Dedicated 15-20 amp single outlet for the Audio gear
•  
• Whole house surge suppressor in the breaker box.
•  
• Additional ring config grounding points (8ft rods) for the house and service and antennas. The electrician I consulted, went back and grounded the metal roof and gutters at his brother's house plus more rods.
•  
• For coax cables; mil spec gas arc fuses  that tie to grounding rods or water pipes in the basement, in addition to the exterior grounding lugs and 8 foot rods. You can attach the coax through the power strip for 3 layers of protection. Exterior grounded metal copper bulkheads and loops  with 1in pieces of black gas pipe can be added for additional protection.
•  
• Coax cables can be connected with gas arc fuses in the basement using UHF connectors, these make excellent connections and allow you to quickly detach the Coax from the equipment side of the arc fuse when storms are in the area, lightning storms are a common problem in the Chicago area.
•  
• The best protection, for your protected gear, is to disconnect the power cord and coax lines when Lightning Storms are in the area.
•  
• Dedicated power strips like Monster, I like others better, for your fav electrical gear, that have RF, Common Grounding, under-voltage and over-voltage protection.
•  
• You can even buy the transformers on-line that are sold to the military and use them for 1:1 as line filters, they are dirt cheap. If you live somewhere where the electrical service is poor, you can have a whole house transformer installed as a filter. You would need to consult a very competent Electrician and possibly EE for a whole house transformer; I'm pretty sure you would need a high quality suppressor between the transformer and the city wire. When we were stationed overseas, these were common in poorly served areas.

 

Grounding rods are dirt cheap, quality switches and wall sockets are dirt cheap, grounding lugs are dirt cheap, quality breaker switches are dirt cheap but do add up, a whole house quality suppressor is $50, a good power strip with under-voltage is about $150 but does give you a common grounding point for your gear that is closer to earth than the other gear.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Bubo

[westom]

So can I extract from this that you recommend that I do not continue using the Monster equipment as it didn't do anything back then and it isn't doing nothing now?

That Monster (if I recall) disconnects AC power if voltage goes too low or too high. Overvoltage is almost non-existent in homes. Often is averted when wiring or utility transformer failure is predicted by incandescent bulbs that change intensity.

Undervoltage is not harmful to electronics and even required by international design standards that predate an IBM PC. Undervoltage can be harmful to motorized appliances. So a Monster that disconnects on low voltage would be useful to a refrigerator. But then how often do your bulbs change intensity?

Monster is traditionally a profit center. Once you have spent the money, well, use it where convenient.

Moving on. 'Whole house' protection involves what was first defined in elementary school science. Surges seek earth ground. A 20,000 amp surge connects to earth destructively via a wooden steeple. 20,000 amps through a poor electrical conductor (wood) creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Steeple damaged.

Franklin 'diverted' a surge harmlessly to earth via a lightning rod. A conductive material (wire) means 20,000 amps creates a near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage.

An effective protector performs similar.

Lightning striking wires far down the street is a direct strike to earth via household appliances. That massive current blowing through an appliance creates a high voltage. Massive current times high voltage is high energy. Appliance destroyed - just like a steeple.

'Divert' (connect, shunt) a surge harmlessly to earth before it enters. A conductive device (wire or protector) connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground creates near zero voltage. That maybe 20,000 amps times near zero voltage means near zero energy. Nothing - not even that protector conducting 20,000 amps - is damaged.

Never try to stop or block a surge with an adjacent protector. Instead, a surge current is connected to earth harmlessly BEFORE entering a building. Then a 20,000 amp current is not connected to earth destructively via a wood structure or its appliances. Once that surge is inside a building, then it will hunt for earth destructively via appliances.

Best protection on a coax TV cable is a hardwire from that cable to single point earth ground. But AC electric wires cannot be earthed directly. So do a next best thing. A 'whole house' protector does what a hardwire does better. A hardwire from lightning rod to earth ground also does same.

These devices are manufactured by companies with better integrity including Intermatic, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), General Electric, Delta, Siemens, Leviton, Syscom, Square D, and ABB to name but a few. A Cutler-Hammer solution is sold in Lowes and Home Depot.

Critical is not the protector. Critical is the quality of and connection to single point earth ground. All four words have electrical significance. A protector does not do protection. Earth ground does protection - harmlessly absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules ... just like the earth ground that makes a lightning rod effective.

Any wire that enters without first connecting low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to that earth ground means protection is compromised. Telephone, speaker wires, or anything else that exits a building must be part of this protection system - both overhead and underground.

Cable TV, satellite dish, and telephone wires should already have this solution installed for free as required by code. Incoming wires that do not are AC electric. This most common source of incoming surges is why informed homeowners earth a 'whole house' protector.

Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. Protectors that fail do not do protection (and are promoted by naive consumers). A properly sized protector should earth direct lightning strikes without damage. To even protect that Monster.

Appliances are destroyed for the same reason church steeples are damaged. Earth lightning via a lightning rod so that current does not pass through a church steeple. Earth lightning via a 'whole house' protector and low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') hardwire connection so that lightning need not find a connection to earth via appliances.

Bottom line - a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Only then one can say where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

Edited March 18, 2015 by westom

[Schu]

Is this about protection or sound quality?

[NBPK402]

 

Just so you know... Installing a whole house surge protector will not protect you from a loose wire to your house.

First, a short list of anomalies include harmmonics, EMI/EMC, reverse polarity, frequency variation, floating safety ground, sag, disconnected earth ground, and bad power factor. What protects from all? Nothing. Each anomaly is addressed by a specific solution. A surge protector is for earthing surges. Lights changing intensity (as described earlier) were warning that overvoltages would be increasing to destrutive levels in the future. If that symptom is ignored, then a resulting failure may cause damage months later.

Second, if a Monster did as believed, then we should see a long list of other destroyed appliances including bulbs, dimmer switches, all clocks, smoke detectors, bathroom and kitchen GFCIs, door bell, dishwasher, TVs, refrigerator, recharging mobile phone, washing machine, etc.

Should one put a Monster on all those appliances?

Third, products with a largest warranty are often inferior products. Best and least expensive solution is home insurance that is required to honor their policy.

Fourth, described was an executive summary of 'whole house' protection. Not provided were specific and essential details necessary to install it correctly.

 

If you know of a whole house surge protector that covers extended high voltage... I would like to know where I can get it because i could not find one anywhere.

[westom]

 

If you know of a whole house surge protector that covers extended high voltage...

You could not find one because almost nobody needs one. If a utility cannot maintain voltage in a specific range, its equipment disconnects power.

If overvoltage is a problem unique to your house, then first find and then fix what may also be a major human safety threat. One never replaces things without first identifying the defect. If overvoltage only exists in your house, then find someone who understands good diagnostic procedure.

A less expensive solution is to buy electronics with a universal power supply. All portable electronics must have this. Some such as monitors also come with it. It may cost slightly more with some appliances. But is it far less expensive than a magic box that would cut off power during an overvoltage.

A universal supply means an appliance works happily on all voltages from 85 to 265 volts. Again, that is standard on portable devices including mobile phones and computers.