Problems with new home theatre system. Amplifier to weak?

[jocker96]

Hallo to all Klipsch forum members!

 

I recently upgraded my home theatre with Klipsch speakers. I got following:

 

Front: Klipsch RP 260f  

Center: Klipsch RP 450c  

Surround: Klipsch RS-52 II

Subwoofer: Klipsch R-112SW  

 

Connected to Yamaha RX-V777

 

After I put everything together and placed all the speakers, I must say that I am not so happy with the sound I get

The problem I am experiencing is simply the sound lacks dynamics and bass. Lots of treble, little bass. It feels that I listen to some sort of PC speakers when I run 5.1. Sure, I can screw on the subwoofer to get more out of the low frequencies but then the whole room starts to shake including windows and myself on the couch Unfortunately even then I think the sound is too sharp. It doesn’t matter witch settings I use on my amp, I get poor results. When I run just fronts without a subwoofer so it sounds better but not quite 100%. The base will start to kick in when I raise the volume but still too much treble in my opinion. At low volumes, the sound is very thin. I feel that I just want to constantly raise the volume to get better sound. Applies to both film and music.

 

Settings I use:

Subwoofer:

-LOW PASS knob is set to the farthest point right (so that I can control this from the amplifier)

-GAIN knob on one third

Amplifier:

-All Speakers are set to SMALL (except when I run just fronts, then they become automatic LARGE as soon as I turn off the subwoofer)

-Bass CROSS OVER 80Hz

-Calibrated with YPAO

 

This can´t be speakers fault, most people who own Klipsch speakers from the Reference series is very satisfied and the speakers win in different tests. I have also listened to RF-82II hooked up to Maranz SR7009 in Pure Direct mode ... and I must say that I have been blown away by how good this combo sounded. Pure Direct mode at home sounds almost as computer speakers from the 90s. Sure RF-82II is bigger than my RP-260F so maybe this isn’t best comparison.

 

What I suspect myself is that my amplifier is not enough, is too weak to drive those speakers or Yamaha is not going so well with Klipsch. Possibly I have missed something in the settings. Maybe my new speakers need more playing time to sound good. Fronts have played in a total of 30 hours, the rest 10-20 hours.

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

Ps. Sorry, for my bad English. Hope You will understand what I meant.

[Schu]

 

What I suspect myself is that my amplifier is not enough, is too weak to drive those speakers...

 

Not likely...

 

 

jocker96, on 15 Mar 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

   Yamaha is not going so well with Klipsch.

 

 

 

Most likely

Edited March 15, 2015 by Schu

[mustang guy]

Your mains are capable of almost full range (34Hz), and your center is 58Hz. I see no reason you would set them top an 80 Hz high pass filter, which doesn't start at 80Hz. It will be -3db at 80 Hz, and drop from there. You need to lower those numbers if you want the receiver to send the bass to them.

 

The mains should be set to large and the center to small and cross at either 60 or 40Hz (those are the Yamaha choices). The surrounds set to small and 60Hz.

[willland]

Your mains are capable of almost full range (34Hz), and your center is 58Hz. I see no reason you would set them top an 80 Hz high pass filter, which doesn't start at 80Hz. It will be -3db at 80 Hz, and drop from there. You need to lower those numbers if you want the receiver to send the bass to them.

 

The mains should be set to large and the center to small and cross at either 60 or 40Hz (those are the Yamaha choices). The surrounds set to small and 60Hz.

 

Without subwoofer engaged, set those mains to full range(large), otherwise as mentioned you will be -3dB down at 80Hz.

 

Oh yeah, welcome to the forum.

 

Can I assume your home is in a European country?

 

Bill

[Scrappydue]

Your mains are capable of almost full range (34Hz), and your center is 58Hz. I see no reason you would set them top an 80 Hz high pass filter, which doesn't start at 80Hz. It will be -3db at 80 Hz, and drop from there. You need to lower those numbers if you want the receiver to send the bass to them.

The mains should be set to large and the center to small and cross at either 60 or 40Hz (those are the Yamaha choices). The surrounds set to small and 60Hz.

this is commonly gone back and forth about. However I will say I own those speakers and I own a low power denon. Power shouldn't be an issue and your setting sound spot on with what mine were. I don't know anything about ypao but I would guess either something isn't getting looked at OR the yamaha is not a good match.

[Youthman]

Welcome to the forums. When I had my Yamaha RX-V1800, there was an option to choose PEQ, GEQ or None. See if you have those options. If you switch and like the sound better, YPAO might be the issue

[pite]

"What I suspect myself is that my amplifier is not enough, is too weak to drive those speakers"

- Klipsch speakers are very efficient and hence doesn't need lots of power to drive them for moderate SPL

 

"or Yamaha is not going so well with Klipsch."

- That might be a possibility as Klipsch tend to sound warmer with laidback AVRs from Denon / Marantz.

 

"This can´t be speakers fault, most people who own Klipsch speakers from the Reference series is very satisfied and the speakers win in different tests. I have also listened to RF-82II hooked up to Maranz SR7009 in Pure Direct mode ... and I must say that I have been blown away by how good this combo sounded. Pure Direct mode at home sounds almost as computer speakers from the 90s. Sure RF-82II is bigger than my RP-260F so maybe this isn’t best comparison."

- I haven't auditioned RP-260F or RF-82II. Also, in your case, both speakers are driven by different amplifier (AVR) so can't compare directly. However, back in time when I auditioned RF-63s and RF-83s with exact same Marantz AVR, in my opinion RF-83 sounded warmer compared to RF-63.

 

- This reminds me souple of things that you might want to experiment with;

        (1) Speaker Toe-In: Did you toe-in your speakers properly? 

        (2) Speaker Placement: Did you move your speaker around? e.g. changing distance beween left and right speakers, distance from back and side walls.

 

If you've experimented enough, your best bet might be to go to nearby Klipsch dealer with your Yamaha AVR (if they don't have Yamaha!) and do A-B comparison with RP-260s. If there is a possibiilty do a A-B comparison with other Reference speakers available with exact same AVR and with your Yamaha. Qualifying a good (sweet, fuller, etc.) sound to you can only be done by your own ears and hence I don't see easy way out

 

Also, no harm in talking to Klipsch Technical Support and see if there is something that can be tweaked!

[jocker96]

Tanks everyone for answers

 

Your mains are capable of almost full range (34Hz), and your center is 58Hz. I see no reason you would set them top an 80 Hz high pass filter, which doesn't start at 80Hz. It will be -3db at 80 Hz, and drop from there. You need to lower those numbers if you want the receiver to send the bass to them.

 

The mains should be set to large and the center to small and cross at either 60 or 40Hz (those are the Yamaha choices). The surrounds set to small and 60Hz.

Unfortunately my AVR doesn’t allow setting crossover individually for each speaker so I will set mains as LARGE, center and surround as SMALL and crossover at 40Hz.

 

Also can you confirm that I´m setting knobs on the subwoofer correctly. User manual says “If

setting the crossover point in the receiver, turn the Low pass Filter knob on the subwoofer to the farthest point right (160Hz)”

Well my subwoofers low pass filter knob doesn’t have 160 Hz at its farthest right point, it has LFE instead. 

Just double checking.

 

Can I assume your home is in a European country?

 

Hi Bill, You're right I live in Sweden  

 

 

However I will say I own those speakers and I own a low power denon. Power shouldn't be an issue and your setting sound spot on with what mine were. I don't know anything about ypao but I would guess either something isn't getting looked at OR the yamaha is not a good match.

 

Maybe Denon is more solid when it comes to power rating its amps. When comparing some specs, your Denon 1713 power consumption is 390W and my Yamaha rvx 777 is 300W. That is not huge difference, but still. Your Denon gives 80 w per channel / 8 ohms / all channels. Yamaha doesn’t even mention how much power one get with all channels driven. Instead it is 95 W per channel / 8 ohms / 2 ch driven. I can only guess how much power I get per channel when using 5 speakers (300W divided into 5 channels = 60W) Please, correct me if I’m thinking wrong here.

 

What is your opinion on RP-260F? Are you happy with them?

 

Welcome to the forums. When I had my Yamaha RX-V1800, there was an option to choose PEQ, GEQ or None. See if you have those options. If you switch and like the sound better, YPAO might be the issue

Parametric EQ on my Yamaha has following options:

YPAO:flat, YPAO:front, YPAO:Natural, Manual and Through. I don’t like YPAO ones and use Through and Manual most of the time. Maybe investing some more time in Manual setting would be a god idea?

 

 

I haven't auditioned RP-260F or RF-82II. Also, in your case, both speakers are driven by different amplifier (AVR) so can't compare directly. However, back in time when I auditioned RF-63s and RF-83s with exact same Marantz AVR, in my opinion RF-83 sounded warmer compared to RF-63.   - This reminds me souple of things that you might want to experiment with;         (1) Speaker Toe-In: Did you toe-in your speakers properly?          (2) Speaker Placement: Did you move your speaker around? e.g. changing distance beween left and right speakers, distance from back and side walls.   If you've experimented enough, your best bet might be to go to nearby Klipsch dealer with your Yamaha AVR (if they don't have Yamaha!) and do A-B comparison with RP-260s. If there is a possibiilty do a A-B comparison with other Reference speakers available with exact same AVR and with your Yamaha. Qualifying a good (sweet, fuller, etc.) sound to you can only be done by your own ears and hence I don't see easy way out

 

Unfortunately Klipsch are not so easy to come by where I live. I have visited 3 different AV stores in order to listen to 3 different Klipsch speakers RP-250F, RF-82II and RF-62II which is predecessor to mains I have (RP-260F). I must say that I liked every one of them and every one was hooked up to a decent AVR or amplifier, none of them being Yamaha budget model like mine.

Fortunately one of AV stores I visited agreed to lend me Marantz 7009 over weekend for testing.

So next weekend I will be very busy testing   and getting ready some extra cash for new AVR 

 

In the meantime I will refurnish my living room so I can move speakers more freely. Right now my mains are standing 2.5m (8.2ft) away from each other and there is a wall 35cm(1,15ft) behind them. One of them is standing more less in corner of living room, the other is not. Can this be causing problems?

 

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the help guys I hope I haven't offended anyone with my beginner questions:)

Edited March 16, 2015 by jocker96

[Paducah Home Theater]

Fortunately one of AV stores I visited agreed to lend me Marantz 7009 over weekend for testing.

I had this exact same setup on a Marantz SR7009 and I thought about the same thing as some of the things you posted, just maybe not as extreme. I'm sure I could get used to it but for my own personal use, let's just say I highly prefer my RF-7ii's. But, some people who are used to the cheaper reference stuff think those sound dead. It's all personal preference I guess.

[derrickdj1]

The ideal  of 300/5=60 watt is not entirely the correct way to think about the amp power handling.  I feel like others, work with the autocalibration, EQ stuff in the avr.  It takes a while to learn how to use all the feature and how to get the best sound out of everything.  I don't think the global XO is the problem.  I set all speakers to small and XO at 80 Hz.  If you have a good sub, there should be no loss of bass. 

 

There may be settings in the avr controling dynamic range, check for it.  Also, turn the gain up on the sub a bit if you want more bass.  A lot of the sparkly Hi's, detail and clarity come from speaker placement as pointed out.  Give your system a chance and do some manipulations of the avr and speakers.

Edited March 16, 2015 by derrickdj1

[Scrappydue]

Also, turn the gain up on the sub a bit if you want more bass

 this is not the right thing to do. if you want extra bass its better to turn up the level in the avr levels. if you mess with the actual subwoofer, you end up messing up the voltage level. 

[mustang guy]

Tanks everyone for answers

 

Your mains are capable of almost full range (34Hz), and your center is 58Hz. I see no reason you would set them top an 80 Hz high pass filter, which doesn't start at 80Hz. It will be -3db at 80 Hz, and drop from there. You need to lower those numbers if you want the receiver to send the bass to them.

 

The mains should be set to large and the center to small and cross at either 60 or 40Hz (those are the Yamaha choices). The surrounds set to small and 60Hz.

Unfortunately my AVR doesn’t allow setting crossover individually for each speaker so I will set mains as LARGE, center and surround as SMALL and crossover at 40Hz.

 

Also can you confirm that I´m setting knobs on the subwoofer correctly. User manual says “If

setting the crossover point in the receiver, turn the Low pass Filter knob on the subwoofer to the farthest point right (160Hz)”

Well my subwoofers low pass filter knob doesn’t have 160 Hz at its farthest right point, it has LFE instead. 

Just double checking.

subwoofer2.jpg

 

Can I assume your home is in a European country?

 

Hi Bill, You're right I live in Sweden  

 

 

However I will say I own those speakers and I own a low power denon. Power shouldn't be an issue and your setting sound spot on with what mine were. I don't know anything about ypao but I would guess either something isn't getting looked at OR the yamaha is not a good match.

 

Maybe Denon is more solid when it comes to power rating its amps. When comparing some specs, your Denon 1713 power consumption is 390W and my Yamaha rvx 777 is 300W. That is not huge difference, but still. Your Denon gives 80 w per channel / 8 ohms / all channels. Yamaha doesn’t even mention how much power one get with all channels driven. Instead it is 95 W per channel / 8 ohms / 2 ch driven. I can only guess how much power I get per channel when using 5 speakers (300W divided into 5 channels = 60W) Please, correct me if I’m thinking wrong here.

 

What is your opinion on RP-260F? Are you happy with them?

 

Welcome to the forums. When I had my Yamaha RX-V1800, there was an option to choose PEQ, GEQ or None. See if you have those options. If you switch and like the sound better, YPAO might be the issue

Parametric EQ on my Yamaha has following options:

YPAO:flat, YPAO:front, YPAO:Natural, Manual and Through. I don’t like YPAO ones and use Through and Manual most of the time. Maybe investing some more time in Manual setting would be a god idea?

 

 

I haven't auditioned RP-260F or RF-82II. Also, in your case, both speakers are driven by different amplifier (AVR) so can't compare directly. However, back in time when I auditioned RF-63s and RF-83s with exact same Marantz AVR, in my opinion RF-83 sounded warmer compared to RF-63.   - This reminds me souple of things that you might want to experiment with;         (1) Speaker Toe-In: Did you toe-in your speakers properly?          (2) Speaker Placement: Did you move your speaker around? e.g. changing distance beween left and right speakers, distance from back and side walls.   If you've experimented enough, your best bet might be to go to nearby Klipsch dealer with your Yamaha AVR (if they don't have Yamaha!) and do A-B comparison with RP-260s. If there is a possibiilty do a A-B comparison with other Reference speakers available with exact same AVR and with your Yamaha. Qualifying a good (sweet, fuller, etc.) sound to you can only be done by your own ears and hence I don't see easy way out

 

Unfortunately Klipsch are not so easy to come by where I live. I have visited 3 different AV stores in order to listen to 3 different Klipsch speakers RP-250F, RF-82II and RF-62II which is predecessor to mains I have (RP-260F). I must say that I liked every one of them and every one was hooked up to a decent AVR or amplifier, none of them being Yamaha budget model like mine.

Fortunately one of AV stores I visited agreed to lend me Marantz 7009 over weekend for testing.

So next weekend I will be very busy testing   and getting ready some extra cash for new AVR 

 

In the meantime I will refurnish my living room so I can move speakers more freely. Right now my mains are standing 2.5m (8.2ft) away from each other and there is a wall 35cm(1,15ft) behind them. One of them is standing more less in corner of living room, the other is not. Can this be causing problems?

 

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the help guys I hope I haven't offended anyone with my beginner questions:)

1. Sweden rocks!

2. You have the knob set right at the LFE

3. You might want small and 60Hz - you might be missing content in your center, which is important

4. Mains to large is right.

5. gain is gain - the knob sets the low voltage gain just like the avr

[Scrappydue]

Not sure why you would set mains to large if power is a concern?

[wvu80]

Welcome to the Klipsch World Community!  You have come to the right place to ask your questions, I am sure you will find excellent suggestions to help solve your concerns with your setup.  Your English sounds great, and if we use any slang or abbreviations you don't understand, please feel free to ask. 

 

I don't own any of the speakers or AVR that you have, but there I have some comments, questions, and a suggestion.

 

The settings you referenced sounds right to me for most owners.  Mustang Guy suggested some other settings, you might try them and see if they help.

 

Some people think that speakers do not have a break-in period.  I think the drivers are very stiff when new and a break-in is important.  My last speakers needed a one-month break in period, and they sounded 100% better.  Klipsch suggests a break-in period.

http://www.klipsch.com/Education/breaking-in-speakers

Edited March 16, 2015 by wvu80

[Bryant0086]

Hallo. Jag pratar inte svenska !!  >~

 

  Use the parametric EQ on the Yamaha. I am a Yamaha fan, but I always EQ their receivers. Number two is the fact you have new speakers. When you become accustomed to certain speakers, yout brain freaks out with new ones because they aren't "familiar." Just EQ it to your tastes, then listen more and more. 

 

  Bryant

[garyrc]

...

Some people think that speakers do not have a break-in period.  I think the drivers are very stiff when new and a break-in is important.  My last speakers needed a one-month break in period, and they sounded 100% better.  Klipsch suggests a break-in period.

http://www.klipsch.com/Education/breaking-in-speakers

 

Interesting that they are now saying that.  A few years ago, if I remember correctly, a Klipsch engineer wrote (on this forum) that Klipsch woofers benefitted from a very short break-in -- I think it was 15 minutes, but I could be wrong -- and they couldn't measure any effect of a longer break-in, and that midrange and tweeters didn't seem to have a measured improvement with break-in.

 

Of course, they may not be able to measure everything we can hear.

 

By the time speaker break-in came into the vogue and people started talking about breaking-in everything, including speaker wires, I strongly suspected that the ploy was to get the consumer to listen to the components until the listener's adaptation took place, and to activate a kind of placebo effect.

 

The only speakers I've bought since then were the AK5 stock upgrades for the Klipschorns (midranges, tweeters, and crossovers).  I think they improved with use, but I couldn't swear to it.

[mustang guy]

Not sure why you would set mains to large if power is a concern?

Lacking bass, not power. Actually "dynamic bass" as he puts it.  If he were hurting for power, it wouldn't lack bass so much as have distortion in the bass. Too much of the bass is being redirected to a single sub in the entire HT. If he had multiple subs as in your case, this would not be as noticeable. 

 

From the original post it seems his trouble is he needs to either stop high pass filtering so much or he needs to EQ as Bryant mentioned. 

[Scrappydue]

Not sure why you would set mains to large if power is a concern?

Lacking bass, not power. Actually "dynamic bass" as he puts it. If he were hurting for power, it wouldn't lack bass so much as have distortion in the bass. Too much of the bass is being redirected to a single sub in the entire HT. If he had multiple subs as in your case, this would not be as noticeable.

From the original post it seems his trouble is he needs to either stop high pass filtering so much or he needs to EQ as Bryant mentioned.

ok that makes sense. I always forget not everyone has as capable of a subwoofer setup

[derrickdj1]

 

 

Not sure why you would set mains to large if power is a concern?

Lacking bass, not power. Actually "dynamic bass" as he puts it. If he were hurting for power, it wouldn't lack bass so much as have distortion in the bass. Too much of the bass is being redirected to a single sub in the entire HT. If he had multiple subs as in your case, this would not be as noticeable.

From the original post it seems his trouble is he needs to either stop high pass filtering so much or he needs to EQ as Bryant mentioned.

ok that makes sense. I always forget not everyone has as capable of a subwoofer setup

 

[Scrappydue]

 

 

 

Not sure why you would set mains to large if power is a concern?

Lacking bass, not power. Actually "dynamic bass" as he puts it. If he were hurting for power, it wouldn't lack bass so much as have distortion in the bass. Too much of the bass is being redirected to a single sub in the entire HT. If he had multiple subs as in your case, this would not be as noticeable.

From the original post it seems his trouble is he needs to either stop high pass filtering so much or he needs to EQ as Bryant mentioned.

ok that makes sense. I always forget not everyone has as capable of a subwoofer setup

 

 

LOL well i don't mean everyone having 18's but there are lots on here who have GOOD subwoofer/subwooferS.