mustang guy Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 RF-82 II's are on sale for $399 each. I wonder how they would stack up against the B&W 804's? 1/10th the price, good WAF, and I bet he would like the sound of them better. Plus he has $6,700 still in his pocket. I don't know anybody who said RF-82 II's suck. 98db vs 90db efficient, and it has better bass response than the P-39. "I don't know anybody who said RF-82 II's suck. 98db vs 90db efficient, and it has better bass response than the P-39." <---- Wow - that's really interesting !!! I can't even say that with RF-7 IIs or RF-83 when comparing to P-39F. The base is quite comparable between RF-7 II and P-39F up to given point of driving, but when it comes to midrange I've not heard anything in RF series (including RF-7 IIs) that can come close to Palladium P-39F. Also, one can drive Palladium P-39F up to 400w and that will blow RF-7II out as they max out at 250w. That said, while I've never auditioned myself, I've heard that mids from Heritage line is more detailed. I don't want to belittle RF-82 II (and will never say that they suck), but honestly speaking it wouldn't be fair to compare RF-82 (or newer RF-82 II) with RF-63, RF-83, RF-7 II and any of the Palladium series speakers as they're in different price range as well as the performance. Point taken. Unfortunately, I have only seen pictures of the P-39. I was only speaking of the technical data on the Klipsch site which says RF-82 II -> 33Hz-24KHz ± 3dB, and the P-39 ->39Hz-24kHz +/-3dB. Klipsch is either understating the P-39 or overstating the RF-82 II. I still think $399/spkr is a good price for some damn good speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Triangle Signature Deltas ($8000), PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Integrated ($4399), Oppo CD ($1500), any tuner. You could sub a P-37F but I really like the Triangles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted March 23, 2015 Moderators Share Posted March 23, 2015 & if the WAF kills big k-horns. how about palladiums?That's what I thought….trade in the B&K for P37s. Guys that pull down 7 digits don't have WAF in their vocabulary. LoL, without exception, every person I know who is married that makes 7 digits has WAF to consider, and the necessity for WAF is directly and exponentially proportional to the amount of money earned. However, what WAF may be varies from individual to individual, and may have nothing to do with what the wife likes or would choose, but rather, is often related to what she believes will make him the happiest. I know a doctor on here whose wife ordered him Jubilees as a surprise for Christmas. I know another doctor on here who has owned LaScalas, WMW, other pro equipment, Lascalas, and Jubilees, and his wife also bought him a pair of McIntosh tower array speakers. I know another doctor on here that owns KHorns, is quoted in the PWK biography, and has been a long, long time happy listener with vinyl and tape for sources. If you can get him/her an nearby easy listen to jubes, he probably won't even be interested in B&W. If he wants more plug and play, get him a listen to some Khorns properly set up in a similar size room he is looking at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Some general comments If it has to be new, you can't go wrong with the Yamaha high end gear, I own piles of made in the 80s and 90s. Same goes for the McIntosh gear and the Cornwalls, LaScalas and K-Horns. My preference is for separates, which yes take up more space. To me a quality DVD player or BluRay with a coax output is all that you need for CDs and I would use the stereo for their movies too. I prefer a stand alone Digital Pre Amp like the Emotiva XDA or their pro model which might sound 2% better or not, or the Mac Digital Pre amp I think they are the D-100 and 150. I have to give Emotiva the nod for their groundbreaking product, the component and build quality on the Mac may be better and not worse than EMO. With a digital pre amp, you get lots of interfaces inc USB, you will need all of them. By far the best quality sound comes off of BluRay disks, DTS and the Dolby equivalent. So what I would do is build a stereo, that takes advantage of all of the wonderful tech that has been developed for DTS soundtracks, and the unbeatable amplifier technology of autoformer McIntosh amplifiers. As to BK speakers, as much as I have tried to find a pair that sounds as good as LaScalas I haven't heard any that were even in the same weight class, shouldn't be allowed in the ring. Here is my system. Surround sound, preferably THX certified, processor aka 7.1 pre amp that does auto room EQ, standing wave cancellation, EQs the speakers etc, and run in into a Mac Amp feeding a pair of LaScalas or Cornwalls and possibly 2 quality sub woofers that are set to always on. The surround processor has all of the digital interfaces and built in decoders, if I recall correctly if you run them in Direct Mode the SN jumps up to 110-120db. It also has analog interfaces that a Tuner or TT pre amp can be connected to. Balanced outputs to the Mac would be a big plus. Some have built in FM etc tuners, or buy one that is in black. Mac MC152 is I think their smallest auto former model, but it's a beast at 75lbs like all of the autoformer models. Mac MX 151 is Mac's surround processor if you wanted to go all Mac and has analog and phono inputs. If I were spending my money: Go to the Home Theater board and ask the guys about surround processors and suggest the EMO (2 models), Mac and Parasound, as long as they are available in black they are in the game. Pick one the TOTL EMO is $1900 since they sell direct think of it as everyone else's $4000-6000 offering. Tell them you want to downmix DTS master to Stereo, EMO supports this as does my Pioneer etc... Surround Processor TOTL EMO XMC $1900, Mac $12,500 may not be as good as EMO or Parasound https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1 Mac Amp MC152 MSRP $4,500 LaScalas MSRP $7,000 in cherry A couple of the Reference series Klipsch Subs, we were getting them on New Egg for $300 ea. TOTL Sony BluRay player less than $100 2000 + 4500 max + 7000 max + 600? + 100 = $14,200 This would be a world class system, that you could spend a lot more money and may still fall short. This is with some research. Before I threw down the cash, I would do a lot more homework on the processors and possibly verify that the Mac is solid. I own this sub and love it, I own LaScala1 and think they are world class, I own a Mac stack and think it's world Class, I own the Sony BR player, I own an EMO XDA DAC and love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusaDude Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Since it's 2-channel and someone else's arbitrary money limit... Either... Klipsch Palladium P-38F $12,000 pair Klipsch LaScala II $7,000 pair Parasound Halo A21 Amplifier $2,495 2-channel, 250 wpc/8 ohms, 400 wpc/4 ohms https://www.parasound.com/halo/a21.php Parasound Halo P7 Pre-Amplifier $2,295 Analog 7.1 channel, HT bypass https://www.parasound.com/halo/p7.php Oppo BD-105 $1,299 For any/all digital playback/streaming http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-105/ If they really want to listen to FM radio... Sony XDR-F1HD ~$80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 VRD Monos - $3,500 NBS Preamp - $2,200 VPI Scout II TT w/ Ortofon 2m Black - $3,600 Klipschorn (2009's) - $9,000 Wyred 4 Sound 2 DAC - $2,500 Jolida hot rodded CD player $1,500 Various interconnects - $2,000 total - $24,300. Special, today only, $20,000! Great list! But with a high quality DAC no need to spend $1500 on a hot rodded CD player and $2000 for cables is a total waste IMHO...these savings could be applied to the speakers... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant0086 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Bryant-Your approach dedicates more of the budget dedicated to the speakers which is reasonable. In my list, I wanted to get a McIntosh piece into the mix primarily with the eye to upgrading the speakers (or adding more) in the future. The autoformer output and high power rating of the MA6600 gives the owner a lot of expansion capabilities. Also, the Yamaha will not have the same resale that the McIntosh will enjoy in 10 or 15 years from now. In my opinion, speakers are about 90% of the performance. I have a Sony Explode "boombox" that I absolutely adore for what it is. However, it is not a high-fidelity device.....compared to my home system. My Khorns sound much better. My Boombox has speaker clips though. If I hook my boombox speakers to my home theater amp, it still sounds mostly like my boombox. If I hook my Sony Explode to the Khorns, it sounds more like my home system. I do realize that we are talking extremes here, but it does show the importance of speakers as far as the quality of your system. As far as the Mcintosh over the Yamaha, it is about personal preference. It is simply a high-end amp vs another. I am The Oppo........... well it is probably the most respected digital media player on this forum. There seems to be a reply that is not here anymore. It has to do with me not "understanding" things. I understand that I am less interested in things like prestige and resale value than I am performance and especially performance of Klipsch products. Basically, I am disappointed. Bryant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TasDom Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 The Oppo...yup, I thought about it and it's nice but I know I could not hear the difference between that and the Pioneer even if my life was hanging on the decision. I think the BDP is $1200 no? (almost 2X the Pioneer and I think that's expensive for a CD player). Given the budget, I don't think 1200.00 (6% of the total budget) is very much on a quality source. Sure there are cheaper (and more expensive) but build quality, features and excellent customer support go a long way. The McIntosh MVP891 is north of 5000.00 but will it sound better? I've never heard it so I don't know. I can see where matching aesthetics play a roll if the other gear is of the same brand. Your dentist friend is lucky having you to advise him with his purchase. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) The autoformer output and high power rating of the MA6600 gives the owner a lot of expansion capabilities. Also, the Yamaha will not have the same resale that the McIntosh will enjoy in 10 or 15 years from now. As far as the Mcintosh over the Yamaha, it is about personal preference. It is simply a high-end amp vs another. The Oppo........... well it is probably the most respected digital media player on this forum. I understand that I am less interested in things like prestige and resale value than I am performance and especially performance of Klipsch products. Basically, I am disappointed. Bryant Some thoughts: There is lots of good used and new gear out there besides Mac and Yamaha, these are my two favorites since I sampled them all new in a fully stocked Audio Associates Showroom in the very early 1980s; my friend was the manager, so I spent hours there over several days before my first purchase. I sampled and purchased 5 used 1990s Yamaha amps first because the sound is as good as it gets, and they were comparatively dirt cheap and easy to work on. Japan has the best manufacturing engineers in the business and Yamaha makes musical instruments too. Agree, the autoformers set Mac apart and offer a higher level of speaker protection for the expensive speakers, the damping rates on the newer ones are above the magic number of 20. Not all Mac amps have the same level of desirability. The THX certified Parasound products should sound pretty good and have much lower resale than Mac amps, like most products. Haven't heard their Halo line, Parasound fans love it as do others. EMO offers a lot of bang for the buck, I haven't heard their second generation amps and would have to read the reviews on them and listen to some. Their XDA DAC was a groundbreaking product and worthy of recognition and emulation. Like a lot of Hardware companies, they appear to struggle with software, I'm guessing the Pres or Managing Director is a HW Engineer, the best engineer in the company. There are a several THX rated surround receivers out there that are AB with Class D becoming more popular for some reason, that probably sound great, they passed the spec and the bench tests. Mac in known for their Amplifiers, and some of their pre amps and a few of their tuners, I haven't heard their speakers. Some of their gear sells used for very low resale values, not the top respected amps which sell at a premium, but not all amps. You would have to check the history of the integrated amps on the bay to see how fast they drop. As to OPPO, I'm sure it does everything very well, I prefer to minimize the investment in things that have moving parts to the absolute min. OPPO would be well advised to look at the EMO XDA and Mac D-100, 150 products and field a competitive pre-amp product if they haven't already done so. Internal ideological battles sink most product companies, they forget the competition is outside of the building. As to the performance of Klipsch products, I have a strong preference for the Heritage line since it was performance first over style or form factor. Not just Klipsch, but many of the newer speakers are the triumph of form and style over function, like politicians I suppose. Edited March 23, 2015 by Bubo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 From strictly a performance angle, it's the speakers and (conspicuously overlooked in this thread) the room. A $20K budget, and the room's influence seems overlooked, as though throwing $20K at just the kit will solve acoustic issues. At that budget, any required room treatments could be very tastefully integrated into the decor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 As to the Heritage LaSclas this is Volti's interpretation of the LaScala the Vittoria. Worth a look. It would be nice if Klipsch took at look at updating the Heritage designs with performance first followed by form and style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 i know someone with a pair of these they don't need Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Mac Amp MC152 MSRP $4,500 LaScalas MSRP $7,000 in cherry A couple of the Reference series Klipsch Subs, we were getting them on New Egg for $300 ea. TOTL Sony BluRay player less than $100 2000 + 4500 max + 7000 max + 600? + 100 = $14,200 This would be a world class system, that you could spend a lot more money and may still fall short. While nice for the money I have a hard time saying two of those cheaper 12's are "world class" and can keep up with everything else you just mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 If I was going to throw that kind of $$$ into new system I'd look for gently used really high end gear. With cash in hand you could command some deals. Given a good sized space - I'd seek out Avantegarde for speakers and Accuphase for all other components. For $20K you could lay out about $50K worth of product. Just say'n. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Go to the Home Theater board and ask the guys about surround processors .... Hey, who left the door open and let a multi-channel guy into the 2 channel forum! Maybe we need a secret handshake or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 The Oppo...yup, I thought about it and it's nice but I know I could not hear the difference between that and the Pioneer even if my life was hanging on the decision. I think the BDP is $1200 no? (almost 2X the Pioneer and I think that's expensive for a CD player). Given the budget, I don't think 1200.00 (6% of the total budget) is very much on a quality source. Sure there are cheaper (and more expensive) but build quality, features and excellent customer support go a long way. The McIntosh MVP891 is north of 5000.00 but will it sound better? I've never heard it so I don't know. I can see where matching aesthetics play a roll if the other gear is of the same brand. Your dentist friend is lucky having you to advise him with his purchase. I would contact Oppo about which one to buy... I contacted them and was told I was wasting my money to get the 105 over the 103. It depends on how he is hooking it up as to whether or not it is worth it to buy the 105. In my case I already have a Darbee Darcet, and i am not planning on using the DVD player as a source switcher/processor so it was a waste of money to go to the 105. In my case they would sound, and look the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 what, no turntable? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) what, no turntable? A Mitchell Gyrodec would be nice. Edited March 23, 2015 by ellisr63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) what, no turntable? Correct, no record players. Edited March 23, 2015 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 My guess is that John's recommendations were constrained by a number of obstacles. I assume that the footprint and WAF were high on the list as well as a turnkey system using new and low-maintenance components (perhaps room placement also). As with most decisions, there are probably many, many other factors that were stated and that needed to be weighed. Yes sir, you're spot on. It's important that his wife sees this as a positive experience and not an exercise in self-indulgence. One thing this hobby is all about, IS self indulgence. Who buys $3K networks for their K's, as says "oh these sound extremely lovely, but I sure hope I wont be viewed as being self indulgent" or We just dropped $20,000 dollars on a two channel "stereo" setup, but we kept it positive and real, heavens no, we have not over enjoyed the whole system either and don't intend to. It just wouldn't be positive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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