NOSValves Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) Well if I could not audition an amplifier in my own system before taking the plunge I'd base my decision on the few things.... I'm taking into account that the buyer has already ruled the piece will fit the situation power and feature wise. 1) First and foremost I'd use direct reviews from folks that actual own the piece and use it with speakers similar to mine. 2) I'd look very long and hard at how long these happy reviewers keep the piece of gear....often an initial review will be skewed by the new pride of ownership or justification for the $ spent... 3) Is it easy to find the amplifier for sale used? This is never a good sign! If its so great why are so many users dumping them at a monetary loss! 4) Is the gear reliable? and is the manufacturer easy to work if problems to crop up All of the above rules out buying gear that is new to the market place and for good reason. Edited March 25, 2015 by NOSValves 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 ^great points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Top Notch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 I have pretty much narrowed it down to a multi channel McIntosh mc 7205 (5X120) or a mc7106 (100X6) both bought used. At least the voicing would be the same and accurate on all channels with multi channel audio and movies. At the same time, since I'm a 99% two channel listener, I am considering a mc 7200. But if I go with a two channel amp, something is still saying give some two channel tube offerings a second look, but I don't know how well they would work with a Denon AVR as a temporary pre. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 You all is hearing things. I certainly am and not for the better. My updated X-overs I put Sonicaps in were a big disappointment after spending 8 months with the Thetas. There were in my K's for about 20 minutes. They were so bad I pulled my Econo X's with the Audyn's out of my rear LaScalas and just unhooked them to the K's to get me by. Im missing your Super X Theta builds in the K's badly, but I know the new owner is very, very happy after tucking them in their LaScalas. I am chomping a the bit to hear those Jupiters you are building ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The 4311 is a nice avr, it should work with the Mc gear and give you something to compare with a tube preamp/amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 The 4311 is a nice avr, it should work with the Mc gear and give you something to compare with a tube preamp/amp. Thank you, its almost a pretty dated one now. I do get what I think is great sound, but how do we really compare great sound to anything other than whats in our own setup before all the improvements and upgrades we have made? Comparing good, better and worse is so subjective without having the change sitting in your own rack or implemented in your own system. I am hoping which ever direction I go will be an improvement. I am just wondering if a tube setup will be way off in sound since using my AVR for the rears and center. I am looking to enhance sound, details and clarity, but I don't know if all three can be pulled off with a modern style tube amp or an old school set of MC 30's or a mc225. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Dave recently posted a thread on the McGurk effect in which our visual perception influences what we are hearing. I contend that what we know about something can do the same thing. In comparing 2 amps where we know that amp "A" has a s/n ratio of 125 db and amp "B" 105 db, we are likely to convince ourselves that amp "A" is quieter. Same with distortion. Amp "A" has a THD spec of .05%, but amp "B" .005%. Likewise, we are likely to think that amp "A" is cleaner. Try doing that with a SET having 5% 2nd harmonic level at a given power output vs. a SEP with feedback having less than 1%. I'd bet that knowing this will lean you toward the SEP every time! This is where having no prior knowledge, or doing a blind listening test, is very useful and informative. That's what I meant when I said that having this knowledge beforehand can poison your perception. So, Craig's approach is certainly safer if you're going to buy equipment which cannot be returned. But even doing that has pitfalls as it's impossible to compare your listening preferences with those of others. Locally, CWs are the most popular Klipsch speakers I've encountered, and the users have very varied preferences as to how they should sound. If one guy based an amp decision on what the other guy likes, there's a good chance that he will be disappointed. Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 Dave recently posted a thread on the McGurk effect in which our visual perception influences what we are hearing. I contend that what we know about something can do the same thing. In comparing 2 amps where we know that amp "A" has a s/n ratio of 125 db and amp "B" 105 db, we are likely to convince ourselves that amp "A" is quieter. Same with distortion. Amp "A" has a THD spec of .05%, but amp "B" .005%. Likewise, we are likely to think that amp "A" is cleaner. Try doing that with a SET having 5% 2nd harmonic level at a given power output vs. a SEP with feedback having less than 1%. I'd bet that knowing this will lean you toward the SEP every time! This is where having no prior knowledge, or doing a blind listening test, is very useful and informative. That's what I meant when I said that having this knowledge beforehand can poison your perception. So, Craig's approach is certainly safer if you're going to buy equipment which cannot be returned. But even doing that has pitfalls as it's impossible to compare your listening preferences with those of others. Locally, CWs are the most popular Klipsch speakers I've encountered, and the users have very varied preferences as to how they should sound. If one guy based an amp decision on what the other guy likes, there's a good chance that he will be disappointed. Maynard I get that. Regardless of where I land, I will be buying something that is liquid and holds its value. I have just come too far modding my speakers, room and other equipment. I really don't want to try and cut a corner at this time, BUT I would like to buy once which is laughable for many other people that have big equipment turnover just to give things a listen. I may just have to buck up, give something a try and see where the chips fall. I don't mind "renting" an amp for a few months and then turn it loose if there is little audible gain. Then again, I may not hear any improvement using an AVR as a pre, I certainly would think it would be a good distance from a quality, dedicated pre/pro. I really wish I could get someone with a lot of listening time around quality setups to evaluate where I'm at with my setup. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I have pretty much narrowed it down to a multi channel McIntosh mc 7205 (5X120) or a mc7106 (100X6) both bought used. At least the voicing would be the same and accurate on all channels with multi channel audio and movies. At the same time, since I'm a 99% two channel listener, I am considering a mc 7200. But if I go with a two channel amp, something is still saying give some two channel tube offerings a second look, but I don't know how well they would work with a Denon AVR as a temporary pre. I've looked at the same road. I had a line on a 7200 and passed since the specs were not significantly different than my MC 2205, which sounds great. I would look one gen newer where the specs all change significantly SN, THD and damping to name a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The 4311 is a nice avr, it should work with the Mc gear and give you something to compare with a tube preamp/amp. I am just wondering if a tube setup will be way off in sound since using my AVR for the rears and center. I am looking to enhance sound, details and clarity, but I don't know if all three can be pulled off with a modern style tube amp or an old school set of MC 30's or a mc225. I suspect that the sonic signature of the amps and voicing would be different, I would use the same pre or surround and amps all the way around. I actually have two systems mostly because of space constraints. The MC 30 was designed with high efficiency horn loaded speakers in mind, the manual give the performance specs for the first .5W which are impressive and where you would do most of your listening. Would I use them for a surround system, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryant0086 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I have pretty much narrowed it down to a multi channel McIntosh mc 7205 (5X120) or a mc7106 (100X6) both bought used. At least the voicing would be the same and accurate on all channels with multi channel audio and movies. At the same time, since I'm a 99% two channel listener, I am considering a mc 7200. But if I go with a two channel amp, something is still saying give some two channel tube offerings a second look, but I don't know how well they would work with a Denon AVR as a temporary pre. Your AVR has a "pure direct" mode, which should override all room corrections and EQ and such. I think all of the nicer Denon, Marantz and Yamahas have that feature. While it makes sense you would want to upgrade your pre-amp eventually, I certainly see your dilemma in not knowing if your AVR as a pre was going to diminish the returns of the higher quality power amp. Tough place to be in if you can't rent, borrow or have some trial equipment. Go with your gut. Good thing about buying used MC stuff is you will probably lose very little money if you don't like the sound. I mean if it sounds worse to you than your Denon's power end, that is. In many ways these days, ignorance might truly be bliss. When I was shopping for an AVR, the more research I did, the more muddled everything became. Good luck brother !! Bryant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Then again, I may not hear any improvement using an AVR as a pre, I certainly would think it would be a good distance from a quality, dedicated pre/pro. I really wish I could get someone with a lot of listening time around quality setups to evaluate where I'm at with my setup. Comparing a McIntosh to my Chinese yaqin tube amp is distant but I have heard mac gear and I know what sounds good and what doesn't work. Now this is a little different to hook up a tube amp to an avr but the el34 yaqin I use ran off of several avr's and sounds very good as both mains and 2 channel. With the new Marantz sr5008 im using I hooked it up for the 1st time last night with the el34 yaqin and it sounds extremely clean and with added low frequency effects from the .2 sw'r preouts off my avr. With my previous 2 Harman kardons avr's I would not have had it any other way than with this yaqin el34 on there. As well as the denon I used in between the 2 hk's. There is also a niles switch setup Craig(mustang guy) uses to go back and forth between his integra surround sound pre and fisher tube amp for his lascalas. I must say as well these days separates seem to be overkill unless somebody needs pics for a magazine article. Unless of course we need headroom or for bi/tri amp needs etc or were using speakers less than 93db. Imo money is best put on tubes for mains and 2ch and second crossovers and let a receiver do the rest. Now i'll stand back while my post gets a barrage of tomatoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Somewhat timely topic. I obviously would concur that listening is the best way to judge if one likes an amp or not. Who knows what other people hear! Having said that I recently auditioned the relatively new Benchmark AHB2 amplifier. The specs are off the charts. "The dynamic range of the AHB2 is 132 dB, making it 10 to 30 dB quieter than the typical reference-quality power amplifier. The frequency response extends beyond 200 kHz." I have to say this is the best amplifier I have ever heard. It is truly remarkable. It now has a permanent home in my system and I couldnt be happier - not because of the specs because truthfully I dont know what they mean, but because of how it sounds. I have auditioned many fine ss amps and none have lasted more than a few minutes! This is a whole new kettle of fish. Truly a game changer - at least to my ears! Josh You're pushing me to make a manic purchase Joshnich. Had a good convo with one of the leaders over at Benchmark and the guy was way over my head, which is very understandable and a good thing! The amp is so clean and dynamic they're having a difficult time finding a pre/pro that will not create a bottle neck for the amp. Right now their DAC has a 32bit volume control and the other specs are as close to the amp as anything they can find. I inquired on a multi channel amp hence their ties with the AAATHX tech and a possible pre/pro. He said nothing was in store for that at the time. It seems like these amps would be a perfect match for a horn setup and obviously you feel the same way. Looking at all the amps, both tube and SS you have rolled in and rolled out, it is very telling that you speak so highly of the Benchmark and it remains in your lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The Benchmark continues to amaze. I cannot turn it off Every night I am home turns into a late night of listening. So much fun and sounds so good that I can hardly stand it! Josh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 All modern specs for at least moderately serious amps are good enough (the exceptions would be AVRs that have power output that is dishonestly rated, so things fall apart when pushing movies at reference level). As nearly everyone is saying, sound is more or less independent of specs. Some of the best sounding amps of the past had ~~ 0.1% THD -- or worse-- and less than 100 watts RMS output (the Marantz tube amps made under Saul, the old McIntosh tube amps, and some of the Dynas). If you must buy without hearing, it's a crap shoot. If you must buy with hearing, but on a system not your own, in most rooms not your own, it's a crap shoot. So, given the lack of dealers who will let you take an amp home to listen to, it's a crap shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2point1 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The first spec and one of the only things I check is wpc at 8 ohms wpc at 4 ohms wpc at 2 ohms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Well, certainly Specs make a difference. But they tell you Absolutely Nothing on whether you will like the amp or not. Absolutely correct! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWJr Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I do have to say... that the spec's of the benchmark have me really intrigued even though they are close to my class D. Why haven't the manu's dropped Class A/B for the G and D setups? I know Rotel did for a while, but I noticed they have started offering the A/B topos again in their integrated amps. The Benchmark combines Class H and Class A/B technologies with something they call feedforward error correction developed in concert with THX. Again, I dont know a thing about the techology but when reading the info it all seemed to make sense. And once again the proof is in the sound. http://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/news/14680625-the-ahb2-a-radical-approach-to-audio-power-amplification Feedforward error correction is a very slick way to do things if and only if you can model exactly what your device is doing wrong. So for an amp, if you can measure all consistent non-linearities and all bad behavior (since we're being technical, let's call it "muck" ), when you get an input signal, you also input the opposite or inverse version of all of the muck you know the amp produces. In theory then, at the output, the positive muck that was just created and inverse muck (which you already knew would happen) adds together, and you get a perfectly amplified input signal. Of course, it's impossible to fully model any electronic system (particularly near its limits), so the quality of the FF system depends on the accuracy of the "muck" model entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serge_S Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 I recently auditioned the relatively new Benchmark AHB2 amplifier. .... It now has a permanent home in my system and I couldnt be happier. .... Josh Hi Josh. How does your new Benchmark perform at low volume? Is there anything lost at low volume when compared to your normal listening level? Have you tried different gain settings? What’s your preamp, other than Benchmark DAC? Thanks Serge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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