eth2 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Early speculation is that the Airbus that crashed in Switzerland today had a computer related malfunction and the pilots were unable to override the automated systems. The speculation arises from what appears to be a controlled, but very fast, decent without a change in direction over eight minutes. The plane failed to turn away from the mountains, which is one of the first thing an experienced pilot would have done according to early reports by expert commentators, it crashed into those mountains. The plane also passed over several airports and continued into the mountains. Last December, a different Airbus came close to crashing after the automated systems, relying on a defective sensing system misguided the aircraft and blocked the pilots from taking control until the last second. Airbus planes differ from Boeing planes in that a Boeing will not lock out a pilot. So much for machine over man. Please keep your automated car off my highway. Edited March 24, 2015 by eth2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Early speculation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Facts include the December incident and the crash at the initial Airbus show, when the computer mowed down an acre of trees because of a computer failure, and the locking out of the pilots, resulting in the nickname for that model as the "Chainsaw." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Early speculation Stand by for several years if then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Also remember that Airbus is a consortium of French, German and Italian governments to combat Boeing. As the French will be conducting the investigation, the truth may never come out. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) I do find it interesting that in the recent past that, while the talking heads continue to pontificate in order to fill the time, the technical explainations of "what could have happened" are much more in-depth. I am referring to a clip I caught today of an explanation of the pitot/static systems for flt instruments. They depicted a rudimentary schematic of the system but failed to show that these analog pressure / static lines now feed onboard 'computers' that translate the data. Just this week I replaced an Air Data Computer for a malfunction in the autopilot. While it corrected that problem, the new ADC had a malfunction that inhibited the TCAS (Terrain / Collision Avoidance System). A lack of proper regression testing spelled out in the maintenance instructions for the replacement of the ADC was uncovered. A proper aircraft pre-flight found that malfunction and a new ADC was installed. Yes, input for change to the manual was submitted. Edited March 24, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Regardless, it's a horrible tragedy. Odd that there was no word from the plane as to their predicament. I have to admit though I know very little about such things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eth2 Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 The cockpit voice recorder may shed a great deal of light on what has happened. Reports are that one "black box" has been recovered, but it is not known whether that is the voice recorder or the data recorder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) PURE SPECUALTION but a pressurization loss slow enough not to be detected by the crew might cause the issue BUT there would have to be compound malfunctions e.g. cabin pressure light not illuminating or being overlooked, etc. A slow rise would not make the O2 masks deploy but could cause hypoxia. AGAIN, just doing what the TV news guys do and throwing out BS and I have never worked the Airbus so.. Edited March 24, 2015 by USNRET Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twk123 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The cockpit voice recorder may shed a great deal of light on what has happened. Reports are that one "black box" has been recovered, but it is not known whether that is the voice recorder or the data recorder. I couldnt imagine what it would be like to be the guy that has to dig through the wreckage to pull the black box out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Although I follow the stories, I pay no attention to early speculation. What's the point? Until a final report comes out from the NTSB or other semi-reliable agency, there's no sense in speculation, And even then, so called conclusions may be sketchy...IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike 585 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 So much for machine over man. Please keep your automated car off my highway. Amen brother. Open the pod bay door Hal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pite Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Let's hope that truth comes out !! It's very strange that there wasn't a distress call from pilot. Unless they lost electrical power and/or all type of available onboard communication. Not sure if this generation of aircrafts has battery to back up critical electrical controls system and communication - I can only imagine that it has to be part of safety/redundancy! To an extent we all live in some sort of controlled enviornment - it's just matter of % probability that we always try to dodge the bullet with! Unfortunately, only few unlucky actually face it while rest of us live... Prayers with families affected. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted March 25, 2015 Moderators Share Posted March 25, 2015 The cockpit voice recorder may shed a great deal of light on what has happened. Reports are that one "black box" has been recovered, but it is not known whether that is the voice recorder or the data recorder. I couldnt imagine what it would be like to be the guy that has to dig through the wreckage to pull the black box out. They are in the tail section which generally remains intact as was the case here with one of them. I am sure it wasn't a pretty site and I sure wouldn't want to have to do it. God rest their souls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 One of the pilots of the Germanwings Airbus that crashed in France was locked out of the cockpit at the time of the crash, according to a New York Times report published Wednesday. The contents of the cockpit voice recorder showed that one pilot left the cockpit and could not re-enter. He knocked on the door to no response from the other pilot. Eventually, he tried to smash in the door. The reason for the pilot leaving the cockpit — and the lack of response upon his return — is unknown. There was no distress call as the plane rapidly descended and then crashed into the French Alps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The plot seems to be thickening, until the FDR is discovered and the CVR is fully decoded. Michael Kay, Brit ex-AF officer and regular on Lawrence O'Donnell, noted a most unsettling fact: in 4 post-9/11 crashes -- MH 370, AF 447, Air Asia, and this one, there were NO RADIO CALLS or efforts at NAVIGATION. These derelictions are contrary to nearly universal pilot practice. He didn't spell it out further, but there is a heavy implication there of organized, conspiratorial human agency at work, and it's pretty scary. http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted March 26, 2015 Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2015 The plot seems to be thickening, until the FDR is discovered and the CVR is fully decoded. Michael Kay, Brit ex-AF officer and regular on Lawrence O'Donnell, noted a most unsettling fact: in 4 post-9/11 crashes -- MH 370, AF 447, Air Asia, and this one, there were NO RADIO CALLS or efforts at NAVIGATION. These derelictions are contrary to nearly universal pilot practice. He didn't spell it out further, but there is a heavy implication there of organized, conspiratorial human agency at work, and it's pretty scary. http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word I am pretty familar with AF 447 crash and can say that was pretty much stupidity, arrogance and the problems with digital fly by wire and side stick,instead of dual, controls. A transcript of that VCR is set forth in this article http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a3115/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877/ I don't know about conspiracies, but there has been studies and discussions about cockpit communications and dynamics for years about how the human mind can get in a closed loop that ignors training and experience. It is the field of cognitive science and here is an excellent article/chaptet as that field relates specifically to commercial aviation safety. The studies Dr Norman cites date back as far as the 80s and 90s. Thirty seconds to realize the pilot is dead, best case, as long as never realizing and crashing because you are afraid to question your boss. That is why these investigations and things to be learned are crucial. http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/chapter_16_coffee_c.html It seems like we had a flight a year or two ago where the pilot went crazy or suicidal? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 LarryC, on 25 Mar 2015 - 11:48 PM, said: The plot seems to be thickening, until the FDR is discovered and the CVR is fully decoded. Michael Kay, Brit ex-AF officer and regular on Lawrence O'Donnell, noted a most unsettling fact: in 4 post-9/11 crashes -- MH 370, AF 447, Air Asia, and this one, there were NO RADIO CALLS or efforts at NAVIGATION. These derelictions are contrary to nearly universal pilot practice. He didn't spell it out further, but there is a heavy implication there of organized, conspiratorial human agency at work, and it's pretty scary. http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word I am pretty familar with AF 447 crash and can say that was pretty much stupidity, arrogance and the problems with digital fly by wire and side stick,instead of dual, controls. A transcript of that VCR is set forth in this article http://www.popularme...ce-447-6611877/ I don't know about conspiracies, but there has been studies and discussions about cockpit communications and dynamics for years about how the human mind can get in a closed loop that ignors training and experience. It is the field of cognitive science and here is an excellent article/chaptet as that field relates specifically to commercial aviation safety. The studies Dr Norman cites date back as far as the 80s and 90s. Thirty seconds to realize the pilot is dead, best case, as long as never realizing and crashing because you are afraid to question your boss. That is why these investigations and things to be learned are crucial. http://www.jnd.org/d...6_coffee_c.html It seems like we had a flight a year or two ago where the pilot went crazy or suicidal? Yes, AF 447 was, or seemed like, an example of all those things. It was confounding to discover that the pilot in the right seat was holding the controls to raise the nose when many signs pointed to the desperate need to lower it. This is SO BASIC and fundamental to flying in marginal circumstances, that it's hard to believe this was a trained pilot. But, your points about the studies and closed loop mind-sets make great sense. Plus, AF 447 and Air Asia clearly were flying into terrible storms, and that's not predictable for terrorist plotting. OTOH, just MH 370 and this one have in common inexplicable human actions resulting in crashes without any cockpit communications or professional navigation moves. Lufthansa gave the following information that certainly suggests a plan that could have been carried out with planning for just a few years: Lufthansa has refused to identify the pilots, or give details of ages and nationality, but it said the co-pilot joined German Wings in September 2013, directly after training, and had flown 630 hours. The captain had more than 6,000 hours of flying time and been Germanwings pilot since May 2014, having previously flown for Lufthansa and Condor, Lufthansa said. I don't think conspiracy can be ignored in those two crashes, in which the black boxes were made unavailable. Kay brings up a terrific point IMO. It will be interesting to see how the international aviation community responds and whether they will pull together enough to move quickly -- some airlines don't do that, as we know. and companies' are all over the place in policies and procedures for when one pilot goes to the bathroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 It seems like we had a flight a year or two ago where the pilot went crazy or suicidal? That might be Egypt Air (990?), in which one pilot who was alone in the cockpit began Islamist chanting and dove the plane into the Atlantic, in a horrifying similarity to German Wings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Now its been reported that one of the pilots was possibly locked out of the cabin moments before decent. Also that knocking or banging on the door could be heard just before the plane crashed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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