Can an Amp Create a Larger Soundstage?

[Youthman]

I have to agree with Roger....It seems the more accurate AMP is the HK because you point right at them, while the Acurus is the less accurate amp, probably because it has more overhead to add punch to the bottom end.

 

Wouldn't that be the opposite of what Roger is saying?  He says the amp is revealing what is there (the entire soundstage) while the HK is not reproducing the entire soundstage.  How could the HK then be the more accurate of the two if it is not producing the entire soundstage?

[Youthman]

Volume could also be the culprit. Are you listening at identical volumes?

That was the first thing I did.  Volume was at 92dB.  The HK was set at -28dB and the HK + Acurus was set at -30dB.

[billybob]

Sure seems like the addition of the Acurus is defining with emphasis what is being heard,wider soundstage.

As for words describing the cause and affect, I struggle at times. Have experienced the same or similar however. Good topic discussion to have here from time to time.

Peace

[Max2]

I would try a couple weeks with it and a couple weeks without. The quick swap is just gonna keep you guessing IMO. Play content you have are very, very familiar with at lower levels or where you listen the majority of the time.  Listen for clearer layers or delicate bits that have been glossed over.  If there is no obvious answer In the end, it doesn't matter.

[Youthman]

The quick swap is just gonna keep you guessing IMO

Not sure what I'm guessing at.  I heard the difference each time.  The title of this thread was to get some discussion on the subject to see if others have experienced the same thing.

 

Content played was typical demo material I usually use.  92dB is normal listening level for me.  Trying to select pieces that have individual characteristics (piano notes, guitar strums etc) as opposed to listening to an entire orchestra piece (don't listen to that much but you get what I'm saying).

[mustang guy]

 

I have to agree with Roger....It seems the more accurate AMP is the HK because you point right at them, while the Acurus is the less accurate amp, probably because it has more overhead to add punch to the bottom end.

 

Wouldn't that be the opposite of what Roger is saying?  He says the amp is revealing what is there (the entire soundstage) while the HK is not reproducing the entire soundstage.  How could the HK then be the more accurate of the two if it is not producing the entire soundstage?

 

I agree with the principal Roger is stating. "What the amp CAN do is either ADD distortion OR not reproduce things as faithfully." My opinion was that the HK is more accurate sound stage since it points at the speakers. The Acurus is doing something more...

[mustang guy]

 

Volume could also be the culprit. Are you listening at identical volumes?

That was the first thing I did.  Volume was at 92dB.  The HK was set at -28dB and the HK + Acurus was set at -30dB.

 

In my opinion, the room will have a great deal of influence on the sound stage at that volume. What does it sound like at 75db?  Less perception of reflections. If say you cannot hear 2Khz below 50db, then it is not perceived. Then lets say the HK is sending exactly 50db 2Khz, but the Acurus is sending 55db of that specific frequency, you will hear added reflections of that frequency.

 

It's so hard for me to write what is in my head. Sorry for the confusion.

[Coytee]

Well, from the pictures, I thought it was that bottle of Gain that was helping to diffuse the sound with all the little bubblelie bubbles.

 

Guess not.

[Khornukopia]

... It seems the more accurate AMP is the HK because you point right at them, while the Acurus is the less accurate amp, probably because it has more overhead to add punch to the bottom end. It isn't necessarily distortion, it might simply be a little built in gain on the Acurus.

 

I tend to agree with mustang guy's thought about the HK. I suspect that something in the interconnect wires and or the circuitry of the Acurus is causing a phase shift in the signal. It could be an intentional design to make things sound bigger, so if you like it, then enjoy it.

[Ski Bum]

For level matching you really need to measure at the speaker terminals with a multimeter, not rely on the questionable calibration of AVR volume control settings.  Slight difference in gain will be audible.

 

I agree w/ Roger and Mustang Guy (don't doubt your communications skills MG, I smell what you're steppin' in).  

 

Easy way to widen the soundstage is to spread out the speakers a bit more.  Beautiful room, btw.

[Max2]

 

The quick swap is just gonna keep you guessing IMO

Not sure what I'm guessing at.  I heard the difference each time.  The title of this thread was to get some discussion on the subject to see if others have experienced the same thing.

 

Content played was typical demo material I usually use.  92dB is normal listening level for me.  Trying to select pieces that have individual characteristics (piano notes, guitar strums etc) as opposed to listening to an entire orchestra piece (don't listen to that much but you get what I'm saying).

 

 

Maybe I didn't read your reaction correctly. You didnt sound like you were sold on the different sound the amp produced and now its evident it may or may not be working correctly with the HK. I would still give some extended listening time both ways and possibly try the amp with a different AVR in your den.  Bigger soundstage sounds good to me, but something still may be amiss. 

[derrickdj1]

The precieved wider and more detailed soundstage is the key point.  If the imaging is more 3 dimensional great because, at the end of the audio chain is the audio experience.  I think of the experience as being the sum of all the little parts.

[Don Richard]

 

 

I have to agree with Roger....It seems the more accurate AMP is the HK because you point right at them, while the Acurus is the less accurate amp, probably because it has more overhead to add punch to the bottom end.

 

Wouldn't that be the opposite of what Roger is saying?  He says the amp is revealing what is there (the entire soundstage) while the HK is not reproducing the entire soundstage.  How could the HK then be the more accurate of the two if it is not producing the entire soundstage?

 

I agree with the principal Roger is stating. "What the amp CAN do is either ADD distortion OR not reproduce things as faithfully." My opinion was that the HK is more accurate sound stage since it points at the speakers. The Acurus is doing something more...

 

 

My television has a feature called "Sound Image". When activated it expands the soundstage such that sounds appear to be coming from points much wider than the speakers' location in the TV, with 3D effects galore. What I discovered is that activating this feature throws the higher frequencies out of phase with each other while leaving the low frequencies in phase, leaving the lower bass sounding normal and the treble sounding more "spacious". With some program material it sounds pretty cool, with other material it sounds awful. It depends on how the recording was made. One can DIY a circuit that does the same sort of thing and is adjustable:

 

http://sound.westhost.com/project21.htm

 

I can't say for sure what is happening with the Acurus amp without examining it, but it appears that something like that may be going on. This could be intentional, or accidental due to circuit layout or interchannel crosstalk or something similar.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Don Richard

[Fjd]

 

 

Volume could also be the culprit. Are you listening at identical volumes?

That was the first thing I did.  Volume was at 92dB.  The HK was set at -28dB and the HK + Acurus was set at -30dB.

 

In my opinion, the room will have a great deal of influence on the sound stage at that volume. What does it sound like at 75db?  Less perception of reflections. If say you cannot hear 2Khz below 50db, then it is not perceived. Then lets say the HK is sending exactly 50db 2Khz, but the Acurus is sending 55db of that specific frequency, you will hear added reflections of that frequency.

 

 

For level matching you really need to measure at the speaker terminals with a multimeter, not rely on the questionable calibration of AVR volume control settings.  Slight difference in gain will be audible.

 

I agree w/ Roger and Mustang Guy (don't doubt your communications skills MG, I smell what you're steppin' in).  

 

Easy way to widen the soundstage is to spread out the speakers a bit more.  Beautiful room, btw.

 

 

There are so many variables.  Of course, my tube amplifiers seem to cast some of the larger overall soundstages and have much higher distortion numbers than any of my solid state amplifiers.

 

I also find that precise level matching is more critical than most realize and even a 1 dB difference can change perception.  As Mustang Guy alludes, I suspect that in a room that tends to allow a speaker to “bloom” with reflective surfaces and very little absorption could probably be detected with a 1dB difference in level.

 

A while back I had tried some comparisons and have a notebook somewhere but can’t seem to find it right now.  However, at a high level from what I remember, the amplifiers that cast a larger “soundstage” that extended outside of the speakers seemed to result in less than precise imaging of individual aspects of the recording such as instruments.  It is not like the perceived image of the performers relocate in the soundstage or actually change positions; it is probably more like the individual ambient cues went further out.  In thinking of an extreme, somewhat like people complain about less “center image” clarity.

[Deang]

If there is an "issue", it probably lies with the receiver, not the Acurus -- those amplifiers have nothing less that sterling performance and sound great.

[Fjd]

 

 

My television has a feature called "Sound Image". When activated it expands the soundstage such that sounds appear to be coming from points much wider than the speakers' location in the TV, with 3D effects galore. What I discovered is that activating this feature throws the higher frequencies out of phase with each other while leaving the low frequencies in phase, leaving the lower bass sounding normal and the treble sounding more "spacious".

 

 

 

In some respect like "reverse" time-aligning drivers?  My limited experiences with time-aligning drivers seems to bring various musical cues more into focus with more precise imaging detail where in my experience everything seemed to tighten up with more focus; however, less overall “size.”

[tube fanatic]

 

 

 

I have to agree with Roger....It seems the more accurate AMP is the HK because you point right at them, while the Acurus is the less accurate amp, probably because it has more overhead to add punch to the bottom end.

 

Wouldn't that be the opposite of what Roger is saying?  He says the amp is revealing what is there (the entire soundstage) while the HK is not reproducing the entire soundstage.  How could the HK then be the more accurate of the two if it is not producing the entire soundstage?

 

I agree with the principal Roger is stating. "What the amp CAN do is either ADD distortion OR not reproduce things as faithfully." My opinion was that the HK is more accurate sound stage since it points at the speakers. The Acurus is doing something more...

 

 

My television has a feature called "Sound Image". When activated it expands the soundstage such that sounds appear to be coming from points much wider than the speakers' location in the TV, with 3D effects galore. What I discovered is that activating this feature throws the higher frequencies out of phase with each other while leaving the low frequencies in phase, leaving the lower bass sounding normal and the treble sounding more "spacious". With some program material it sounds pretty cool, with other material it sounds awful. It depends on how the recording was made. One can DIY a circuit that does the same sort of thing and is adjustable:

 

http://sound.westhost.com/project21.htm

 

I can't say for sure what is happening with the Acurus amp without examining it, but it appears that something like that may be going on. This could be intentional, or accidental due to circuit layout or interchannel crosstalk or something similar.

 

Rod Elliott (with whom I agree on most things) hit the issue squarely by equating the soundstage width with crosstalk.  If one compares a stereo amp which shares the power supply rail between the channels with one which has a separate rail for each, or with individual mono amps, the soundstage width difference can be huge.  I would also look at the issue of how much negative feedback is employed as that can impact the high frequency cues which Don mentions.  It's often difficult to compare based on specs alone so, as many have suggested, use your ears and go with what provides what you are looking for.

 

Maynard 

[garyrc]

 

 

My television has a feature called "Sound Image". When activated it expands the soundstage such that sounds appear to be coming from points much wider than the speakers' location in the TV, with 3D effects galore. What I discovered is that activating this feature throws the higher frequencies out of phase with each other while leaving the low frequencies in phase, leaving the lower bass sounding normal and the treble sounding more "spacious". With some program material it sounds pretty cool, with other material it sounds awful. It depends on how the recording was made. One can DIY a circuit that does the same sort of thing and is adjustable:

 

http://sound.westhost.com/project21.htm

 

I can't say for sure what is happening with the Acurus amp without examining it, but it appears that something like that may be going on. This could be intentional, or accidental due to circuit layout or interchannel crosstalk or something similar.

 

 

 

You're hearing things.

 

Rut roh.

 

 

 

 

Some say you need to have a blind A/B test to have conclusive results but I don't think that's necessarily the case.  There is no doubt I'm hearing a difference between the AVR and AVR + Amp combo.  And for me to hear a difference, that's saying something because I don't have what I would consider a "Critical Ear".  I have trouble explaining what I'm hearing.  People make statements about having better dynamics, warm sounding etc and all I can do is use simple terms like more detailed, better bass, wider soundstage, clearer midrange.  Maybe it's because I'm just a simple guy using simple, layman's terms to express what I'm hearing.  I guess I've always been like that though.  Even when I preach at my church, "I put the cookies on the bottom shelf so everyone can reach them".

 

 

For level matching you really need to measure at the speaker terminals with a multimeter, not rely on the questionable calibration of AVR volume control settings.  Slight difference in gain will be audible.

 

I agree w/ Roger and Mustang Guy (don't doubt your communications skills MG, I smell what you're steppin' in).  

 

Easy way to widen the soundstage is to spread out the speakers a bit more.  Beautiful room, btw.

 

Could be so many things.  I'll go with:

• Slight phase effects (not gross polarity) that are different in the two amps.  This might fit with the phase stuff Don is talking about.  What was the Aphex (sp?) enhancer ... didn't it monkey with phase to produce spatiality?
• Is either amp getting near the level of clipping?  Distortion can blur and distract.
• Which amp is the most physically attractive?  Which has the better rep?    Many years ago, someone ran "blind" v.s. "open" listening tests with speaker wire that ranged from very thin, high resistance Radio Shack "speaker wire" meant to pull through attics and basements, to zip cord to several very expensive wires.  In the "open" condition, the subjects knew which wire was being used, and they maintained strong opinions, sticking with a few favored wires -- although they were not in complete agreement with each another.  In the "blind" condition the choices failed to achieve statistical significance, except that a higher than chance group of people preferred the thin Radio Shack wire! 

Edited March 28, 2015 by garyrc

[mustang guy]

Youth, you are out of paper towels.     You have a beautiful home. How do you keep it clean without any paper towels. 

 

I still wonder if the volume at 92db has much to do with it. Does the sound stage seem as large at 75db? What about 65db?  Maybe the room could be causing some artifacts and cancellations that you can perceive at the very loud volume.

[willland]

If we can get Marshall(groomlakearea51) up from his slumber, maybe he would add a little insight about increasing soundstage.  After all, he does have the "Wall of Voodoo".

 

Bill