twistedcrankcammer Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Well, from the pictures, I thought it was that bottle of Gain that was helping to diffuse the sound with all the little bubblelie bubbles. Guess not. Coytee, Kind of like Roys new mumps that Klipsch has patented ?? If you don't know about this, please ask?? Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Amps aside I 'd be inclined to play with speaker placement a bit more i n hat room. Looks like you've got a pretty good triangle, but since you have the space move them apart another couple of feet, and maybe move them in and out a foot or so. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 If we can get Marshall(groomlakearea51) up from his slumber, maybe he would add a little insight about increasing soundstage. After all, he does have the "Wall of Voodoo". Bill I wish someone would have the BALLs to give Marshal a good kick in the hiney and tell him to get back on here!! Roger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 mumps that Klipsch has patented I'm asking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 mumps that Klipsch has patented I'm asking! Gary, Go to Facebook and Look up Klipsch Professional site. There is a video of Roy Delgado talking all about it! I would be REAL surprised if this tech doesn't immediately start making it to consumer products... Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) Interesting topic, it makes one think. +++ What Mustang Guy said made the most sense to me, in that the AVR/only is the most accurate, with the AVR/amp introducing some circuitry or cross talk which may be electronically changing the sound state. In my Onkyo AVR there is a setting where I can electronically change the sound stage width to "wide" or "narrow" and I think I can define how many feet, 2,4,6,8 (I would have to research for the exact answer). It seems that by introducing the separate power amp something is being changed, but it is not conclusive to me which it is, the AVR or amp. Is it possible that the AVR settings are being bypassed by using the pre-outs? It would be an interesting experiment to change those AVR sound stage settings to both extremes and see if a difference can be heard. Edited March 29, 2015 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Responding to the question only as presented about amps and soundstage, isn't that the forte of single ended triodes? I know that is not as technical as many other replies but my take of the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Interesting topic, it makes one think. +++ What Mustang Guy said made the most sense to me, in that the AVR/only is the most accurate, with the AVR/amp introducing some circuitry or cross talk which may be electronically changing the sound state. In my Onkyo AVR there is a setting where I can electronically change the sound stage width to "wide" or "narrow" and I think I can define how many feet, 2,4,6,8 (I would have to research for the exact answer). It seems that by introducing the separate power amp something is being changed, but it is not conclusive to me which it is, the AVR or amp. Is it possible that the AVR settings are being bypassed by using the pre-outs? It would be an interesting experiment to change those AVR sound stage settings to both extremes and see if a difference can be heard. In direct and pure direct those appliances are nullified with direct only applying eq and pure direct adding no processing at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) In direct and pure direct those appliances are nullified with direct only applying eq and pure direct adding no processing at all. Direct or Pure (my Onk uses the term Pure Audio) might be a good way to test, that's an excellent suggestion. I'm interested in the results, even though I am very happy with the sound and SPL of my 100wpc Onk 717 with my CF-4's. Like probably everyone here, I am always wondering if there is something better out there, and I wonder how a big amp would sound using the Onk's pre-outs. Edited March 29, 2015 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 29, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted March 29, 2015 My opinion was that the HK is more accurate sound stage since it points at the speakers. The Acurus is doing something more... To my ears, the "inaccurate" HK + Acurus Amp sounds better, more full. It's not so much a 3D sound....it's just wider, and fills my audible senses better (how's that for being specific) . In my opinion, the room will have a great deal of influence on the sound stage at that volume. What does it sound like at 75db? Less perception of reflections. There are definitely a lot of room reflections in the living room. No acoustic treatments. It just seems strange that at the same dB level, one would have reflections and the other would not. I suspect that something in the interconnect wires I'll try testing the HK + Acurus Amp with a few interconnects to see if it makes any difference. so if you like it, then enjoy it. I definitely prefer the sound better with the Acurus. For level matching you really need to measure at the speaker terminals with a multimeter What setting would I use? not rely on the questionable calibration of AVR volume control settings. If I adjust the volume on the receiver to 92dB for for both scenarios, how would that be considered "questionable calibration". 92dB on a dB meter is 92dB. As mentioned, to get 92dB, I had the HK set at -30dB with the Acurus amp and -28dB without the Acurus amp. Easy way to widen the soundstage is to spread out the speakers a bit more. I could try that to see what happens with the HK by itself. If the imaging is more 3 dimensional great because, at the end of the audio chain is the audio experience. I agree. Bottom line is whatever sounds best to my ears is what is going to remain for my setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 29, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted March 29, 2015 Is either amp getting near the level of clipping? Distortion can blur and distract. At 92dB....I would sure hope not. The HK is rated at 120wpc and the Acurus is rated at 200wpc. I would think that at 92dB, neither is breaking a sweat. Youth, you are out of paper towels. I think you mentioned that before. You have a beautiful home. How do you keep it clean without any paper towels. Thank you. The home is clean because we use so many paper towels. You gotta wonder how clean someone's house is who's paper towel roll is always filled. Things that make you go "hmmmmmm". I still wonder if the volume at 92db has much to do with it. Does the sound stage seem as large at 75db? What about 65db? Maybe the room could be causing some artifacts and cancellations that you can perceive at the very loud volume. Good suggestion...I'll see if I have some quiet time tomorrow to see at those volumes. Honestly, I would never listen to music at 65dB....85dB - 92dB is typical listening level for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 29, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted March 29, 2015 Go to Facebook and Look up Klipsch Professional site. There is a video of Roy Delgado talking all about it! https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152292821561345 Is it possible that the AVR settings are being bypassed by using the pre-outs? It would be an interesting experiment to change those AVR sound stage settings to both extremes and see if a difference can be heard. There isn't any AVR Settings in the AVR3490. Straight up stereo receiver. No sound fields, no Direct Mode etc. Like probably everyone here, I am always wondering if there is something better out there, and I wonder how a big amp would sound using the Onk's pre-outs. Just keep an eye out on Craigslist for a really good deal. That way you can try it for yourself in your own setup and discover what your ears hear. Then if you conclude it doesn't make a difference in your setup, you can sell it for what you have in it and not have any loss. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Roger, that's an interesting way of looking at it. If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying the HK is reducing the effective soundstage while the HK + Acurus Amp is allowing the full soundstage to be revealed? Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) not rely on the questionable calibration of AVR volume control settings. If I adjust the volume on the receiver to 92dB for for both scenarios, how would that be considered "questionable calibration". 92dB on a dB meter is 92dB. As mentioned, to get 92dB, I had the HK set at -30dB with the Acurus amp and -28dB without the Acurus amp. . I assume the SPL meter was on a tripod in the exact same spot for both tests. What did you use as a test signal? Pink noise? Band limited Pink noise (usually 500 Hz to 2K Hz)? A single tone? Since different amps are not equally flat the choice of bandwidth of the test signal might make a difference as to whether the HK and the set-up with the Acurus amp were "really" at the same SPL. But, what is "the same level?" I don't know how to answer that, but I'd think the single tone would be the worst way to go. Also, if the "overall" level -- whatever that means -- was exactly the same, perhaps at 500 to 2K, if one configuration was louder only at high frequencies, say above 5K, the two amps might sound very different. Once, a few years ago, a Hi End magazine (don't remember which one) praised an amp for being much more "open" than another, and a rival magazine found that the "open" amplifier had a broad, smooth peak of a dB or two in the very high frequencies. The "closed" amplifier was more nearly flat. It seems to me that even if the output was measured with a multimeter, some of these issues would remain. The very high frequencies don't push much in the way of volts or watts, particularly if the source is pink noise or a single tone in the midrange, but our hearing mechanism can pick up very subtle differences. So, as you say, what sounds best to you is what you should use. P.S.: Despite the above, I'm still betting on something having to do with subtle phase differences going on. Edited March 29, 2015 by garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) It would seem to me that phase differences could be in play here. But that is just speculation - some measurements on that amp would clear things up. Done with both a resistive load and a reactive load. Edited March 29, 2015 by Don Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I would play with amp placement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 In direct and pure direct those appliances are nullified with direct only applying eq and pure direct adding no processing at all. Direct or Pure (my Onk uses the term Pure Audio) might be a good way to test, that's an excellent suggestion. I'm interested in the results, even though I am very happy with the sound and SPL of my 100wpc Onk 717 with my CF-4's. Like probably everyone here, I am always wondering if there is something better out there, and I wonder how a big amp would sound using the Onk's pre-outs. I'll bet it would sound excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I would play with amp placement. LMAO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I would play with amp placement. Move the TV, and place the amp where the TV went. That would probably effect the way the soundstage is presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 29, 2015 Author Moderators Share Posted March 29, 2015 Move the TV, and place the amp where the TV went. That would probably effect the way the soundstage is presented. Those are the most recent photos I have of the room but the TV was sold awhile back so it isn't part of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.