sweet la scala bass vs. Jub bass

[Rivervalleymgb]

The first time I heard the Motengator was in '79 when we had them set up on a flatbed semi trailer for the Klipsch Harvest Festival as a stage on the West Patrol Road outside Old Washington. I need to scan some slides for the pics.

[Full Range]

The first time I heard the Motengator was in '79 when we had them set up on a flatbed semi trailer for the Klipsch Harvest Festival as a stage on the West Patrol Road outside Old Washington. I need to scan some slides for the pics.

I found a cracker of a thread when searching for the Motengator -

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/149062-klipsch-fan-visits-klipsch-factory/

[alexg5775]

That you all for the comments and help.

 

At first i had the la scalas with a sealed sub. Then i got my tht. I loved this combo. Then i sold la scalas and got the khorns. Khorns were tucked into corner tightly as the should be. I switched between different amplification for them, SS and tube. Obvious notice was khorns playes much deeper than la scalas, they had more bass. The bass although played "lower" and maybe a touch louder i felt was more boomy/sloppy/slow. Bass filled the room nicely but i felt lacked that mid range bloom or clean kick the la scalas provided. It was not a night and day difference but a noticable one. I have done tons of research and i have read many ther similiar observations. Let me remind i have the tht which playes very well up into the 80hz or so, so sub blended seamlessly with la scalas. I got the khorns well beceause the are KHORNS and i thought would sound better than la scalas provided i knew they played lower, etc. I figure i would just have more bass but in the end to be honest i was disapointed. I like my la scalas/tht combo better then khorn/tht combo. This is all IMO and i am being honest.

 

I now have the cf4's. I posted another in depth review on cf4's vs. khorn. I think you guys should take a look at it. Took me a while to write that review. The cf4's (modded how i have them) to me was a clear upgrade to khorns. Cf4's compared to la scalas i would argue the highs on cf4's sound better, Cf4's have more bass than la scalas, more in your chest thump and play lower than la scalas, BUT, i still would argue the la scala bass was cleaner and sounded better. I am a bass addict as you can tell;)

 

I would love me a pair or MWM's but they just wont fit in my house:(  What mostly concerns is the depth, i beleive the mwm are 4ft deep?

 

I just want to be sure the Jubs have that tight clean bass the la scalas have, which is why i was pretty much considering jubscalas but with two la scala bass bottoms per side (as stupid as it may sound.)

 

Any one know someone with a pair of Jubs near south FL i can take a listen?? 

 

Thanks for all the help and opinions guys,

 

Alex

[Chris A]

Since you asked...

 

Khorn are from 1987 and have Crites CT125 tweeter and type A-4500 crossovers, just under two years old. Rest of speaker is stock. Khorns were tucked into corners as they should be. CF4s were raised 24" off [the] floor.

 

Room is 13 feet x 20 feet with 8 foot ceiling, opens into kitchen and stairs, tile floors, Khorns and cf4's were tested on short wall.

 

...Speakers are being passively biamped...I also have a THTLP horn sub...review is with sub not in use.

 

...K horns with 500c: The music sounds very non fatiguing. Music sounds more REAL, more presence. The music was warm, as it should be, and very dynamic. Music had this special bloom sound to it. This combo especially shined at producing the human voice, producing musical instruments as they should sound...

 

...Where I did feel this combo did lack was in the overall robustness and power for the lower frequencies. It did not have that slam with authority which I craved. The bass could be just a tad on the sloppy side.

 

That last sentence says two things to me:

 

1) you definitely have room acoustics issues--and I assume that you never put at least bass traps in the room, since you are describing the sound of a room with Khorns and improper trapping, and

 

2) You aren't as interested in accurate reproduction but rather "bass slam" - which to me is another way of saying "audible bass distortion".  You're not the only person that I know that likes "bass slam": there are many others here that share your preference.

 

 

Having said that, I'd recommend the following, no kidding, changes:

• put bass traps in at least one corner, and two would be better, and think about placing absorption or diffusion panels on the ceiling
• run a REW sweep in your room with a laptop or desktop system (no calibrated microphone is required) and use that to estimate how much absorption is needed by looking at the resulting RT60 vs. frequency curve
• move any objects within 4 feet of your loudspeakers (left, right and height) out of the way and place absorption pads over or on any objects within 6 feet

 

Jub bass bins will audibly beat the CF4 woofer direct radiators for quality and quantity of bass and lower midrange fidelity, but if you don't really want that (bass accuracy and much lower modulation distortion) I recommend that you enjoy what you have. 

 

If you ever decide that you want more accurate reproduction instead of "bass slam" on techno/house (which typically doesn't have truly deep and accurate bass), there are suggestions for how to proceed in that direction.  Those suggestions will start with recommendations for midbass horns and K-510 or K-402 high frequency horns with better compression drivers, and most importantly, active crossovers and active bi-amping or tri-amping with in-room EQ measurements using REW to correct for in-room irregularities.  Those suggestions will definitely beat what you have now--by a wide audible margin.

 

Chris

[Coytee]

Any one know someone with a pair of Jubs near south FL i can take a listen?? 

 

Nope however, next weekend I am expecting a visitor who lives in Tallahassee.  He's been debating on horns and heard/read about the Jubilee's and wants to hear them.  He's driving up for the weekend and we're going to answer all his questions (or do my best).

 

Once he's here, you might contact him for his opinions.  I know he's never heard LaScalas (of which I have) and he's never heard Jubilee's (which is why he's coming).  I don't know how many horns he's heard, if any.

 

I'm guessing he's going to be driving home in a daze that will last him a month or so as he sorts out in his head what he just experienced.

 

Once he's joined the 'heard' crowd, he might be a good one to talk to for initial impressions.

 

I'll try to direct him to this thread just in case you want to talk to him while he's fresh with what he's heard.

[NOSValves]

we have to get the Jubilees in a proper perspective as they are PWK last speaker design with a lifetime of experience -

 

:  the Jubilees are huge , they tend to be a TRUE REPRODUCER - versus per example a Scala or Khorn -

 

-they are a life-like speaker that will reproduce the source material impeccably and without coloring the sound at all - the recording on the CD will ensue through your ears , accurately - as if you were in the recording studio - flat -right down to any deficiency in the recording or by that matter all of it's qualities

 

--the bass is tighter , more defined than a k-horn -and in comparison with the scala ,  the bass bins are taller and wider -resulting in a wider sound experience - the first time you will hear a Jubilee , you will

 

 

 The Jub's currently offered by Klipsch are not what Paul built. The bass bin is but nothing else....

[alexg5775]

Since you asked...

 

 

 

Khorn are from 1987 and have Crites CT125 tweeter and type A-4500 crossovers, just under two years old. Rest of speaker is stock. Khorns were tucked into corners as they should be. CF4s were raised 24" off [the] floor.

 

Room is 13 feet x 20 feet with 8 foot ceiling, opens into kitchen and stairs, tile floors, Khorns and cf4's were tested on short wall.

 

...Speakers are being passively biamped...I also have a THTLP horn sub...review is with sub not in use.

 

...K horns with 500c: The music sounds very non fatiguing. Music sounds more REAL, more presence. The music was warm, as it should be, and very dynamic. Music had this special bloom sound to it. This combo especially shined at producing the human voice, producing musical instruments as they should sound...

 

...Where I did feel this combo did lack was in the overall robustness and power for the lower frequencies. It did not have that slam with authority which I craved. The bass could be just a tad on the sloppy side.

 

That last sentence says two things to me:

 

1) you definitely have room acoustics issues--and I assume that you never put at least bass traps in the room, since you are describing the sound of a room with Khorns and improper trapping, and

 

2) You aren't as interested in accurate reproduction but rather "bass slam" - which to me is another way of saying "audible bass distortion".  You're not the only person that I know that likes "bass slam": there are many others here that share your preference.

 

 

Having said that, I'd recommend the following, no kidding, changes:

• put bass traps in at least one corner, and two would be better, and think about placing absorption or diffusion panels on the ceiling
• run a REW sweep in your room with a laptop or desktop system (no calibrated microphone is required) and use that to estimate how much absorption is needed by looking at the resulting RT60 vs. frequency curve
• move any objects within 4 feet of your loudspeakers (left, right and height) out of the way and place absorption pads over or on any objects within 6 feet

 

Jub bass bins will audibly beat the CF4 woofer direct radiators for quality and quantity of bass and lower midrange fidelity, but if you don't really want that (bass accuracy and much lower modulation distortion) I recommend that you enjoy what you have. 

 

If you ever decide that you want more accurate reproduction instead of "bass slam" on techno/house (which typically doesn't have truly deep and accurate bass), there are suggestions for how to proceed in that direction.  Those suggestions will start with recommendations for midbass horns and K-510 or K-402 high frequency horns with better compression drivers, and most importantly, active crossovers and active bi-amping or tri-amping with in-room EQ measurements using REW to correct for in-room irregularities.  Those suggestions will definitely beat what you have now--by a wide audible margin.

 

Chris

 

 

I built the bass traps. I have 3 corner bass taps 2x4 ft 4" deep in 3 corners and a 4 - 2x4 ft 2" deep absorbtion panels on the first reflection points, (two on the ceiling and 1 on each wall on the sided.)  I used owens corning 703. This was all DIY and i did it myself and i noticed a big difference in sound. Bass seemed tighter, more even throughout the room and louder music seemed not to have much of that high screetching sound. Music sounded better for sure. I am doing my best to describe. I have honestly never done any of this REW sweep in my room. I probably do have room accoustic issues, what exaclty can i do or go from here?

 

When i change and upgrade, i do plan on going active and would like the k402 horn, just FYI.

 

I admit i do crave that bass slam and i hope and dont think* what i trully want is this audiblebass distortion. I am no expert and any and all help is appreciated. I think i can differentiate between high and low distortion bass. I know high distortion bass sounds louder, and under stand why you might think this is what i am after after saying i want that bass slam factor but i dont THINK is what i am trully after.

 

I have owned all aformentioned speakers and many more. I particularly like the la scala bass. I think and consider the bass cleaner, more articulate/tighter than all other speakers. Maybe i am wrong, but is my opinion and what my ears heard.  

 

I have always loved horn bass, My question simplified would be whether dual la scalas bass bins would sound compared to a single jub bass bin. I dont know if anyone has ever considered or run anything like dual la scala bass cabs per side and maybe me even considering this is stupid in a way but i am just curious. I really do appreciate all the help and knowledge.

 

Alex

[alexg5775]

 

Any one know someone with a pair of Jubs near south FL i can take a listen?? 

 

Nope however, next weekend I am expecting a visitor who lives in Tallahassee.  He's been debating on horns and heard/read about the Jubilee's and wants to hear them.  He's driving up for the weekend and we're going to answer all his questions (or do my best).

 

Once he's here, you might contact him for his opinions.  I know he's never heard LaScalas (of which I have) and he's never heard Jubilee's (which is why he's coming).  I don't know how many horns he's heard, if any.

 

I'm guessing he's going to be driving home in a daze that will last him a month or so as he sorts out in his head what he just experienced.

 

Once he's joined the 'heard' crowd, he might be a good one to talk to for initial impressions.

 

I'll try to direct him to this thread just in case you want to talk to him while he's fresh with what he's heard.

 

 

That would be great and thank you.

 

Alex

[jason str]

 

I do remember Michael using that term in previous posts, its hard to remember everything.

 

My brain holds only so much information and if i have to remember this i will need to get rid something else like 18436572 or 9046861556, you probably know the first one being a gearhead and the second number is a old girlfriend's phone number from 25 years ago.

 

I'm bad with remembering peoples names too.

Jason,

Michael didn't even know it was called "The Motengator", let alone what the initials stood for.

My buddy Kevin Harmon gave him the Motengator name for them. Kevin got his info from his buddy Roy Delgato.

Roger

 

 

I would have guessed working for Klipsch Michael would have been part of "The circle of trust" crowd.

 

However i did not know about the mythical creature part.

Edited April 4, 2015 by jason str

[Chris A]

I built the bass traps. I have 3 corner bass taps 2x4 ft 4" deep in 3 corners and a 4 - 2x4 ft 2" deep absorption panels on the first reflection points, (two on the ceiling and 1 on each wall on the sided.) I used Owens Corning 703. This was all DIY and i did it myself and i noticed a big difference in sound. Bass seemed tighter, more even throughout the room and louder music seemed not to have much of that high screeching sound. Music sounded better for sure. I am doing my best to describe. I have honestly never done any of this REW sweep in my room. I probably do have room acoustic issues, what exactly can i do or go from here?

 

This is good.  Here is a link to a thread where Max2 eventually used REW to see the average decay time vs. frequency in his Khorn listening room: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/152955-bye-bye-carpet-hello-echos/#entry1792621.

 

Here I discuss the use of Room EQ Wizard (REW) steps on a laptop or desktop without calibrated microphone to acquire the RT60 plots:

 

 

The "Measure" button brings up a dialog box that performs an upsweep, i.e., it provides an upsweep drive signal through its "out" port, wherever you've set that to be in the preferences, and records the results as frequency response, phase, distortion, impulse, RT60, etc. plots through whichever port you've selected for the microphone signal to return to REW, again set in the preferences.

 

The "RTA" window performs continuous frequency measurements of whatever noise or music is currently playing in your room--sort of like a continuous "noise meter" or "music meter".  It doesn't give you the above information in a way that you can use to correct for loudspeaker FR/phase issues, or measuring your room for RT60 results, etc.  It uses whatever port you've set for the microphone return signal, but is providing no drive signal to do an upsweep. 

 

When i change and upgrade, i do plan on going active and would like the k402 horn, just FYI. I admit i do crave that bass slam and i hope and don't think* what i truly want is this audible bass distortion. I am no expert and any and all help is appreciated. I think i can differentiate between high and low distortion bass. I know high distortion bass sounds louder, and under stand why you might think this is what i am after after saying i want that bass slam factor but i don't THINK is what i am truly after.

 

I have owned all aforementioned speakers and many more. I particularly like the La Scala bass. I think and consider the bass cleaner, more articulate/tighter than all other speakers. Maybe I am wrong, but is my opinion and what my ears heard.

 

I have always loved horn bass. My question simplified would be whether dual La Scala bass bins would sound compared to a single Jub bass bin...I don't know if anyone has ever considered or run anything like dual La Scala bass cabs per side and maybe me even considering this is stupid in a way but i am just curious. I really do appreciate all the help and knowledge.

 

La Scala bass bins have a cutoff frequency around 100 Hz, while the Jub bass bin cutoff is 40 Hz.  Both bass bins go about a quarter octave lower than Fc when placed advantageously inside a room with reflective boundaries.  That extra octave+ of the Jub bass bin over the La Scala bass bin is a really big deal. 

 

PrestonTom built half-height DIY Jubilee bass bins that he is using and is apparently very pleased with the flexibility afforded by those. 

 

Claude's "Quarter Pie" bass bin design should beat the La Scala bass bin's midrange performance since it only turns 90 degrees instead of the La Scala's 180 degree turn, but that is a DIY design that hasn't been discussed here yet.  You might also consider a quarter pie with a K-402 or K-510 on top - like Claude used for a while.  If so, I'd recommend using a three-way with a tweeter --like a time-aligned Beyma CP25 or similar--if you use the stock K-69-A compression driver on the K-402/K-510 and cross over at 8 kHz using an active crossover.  The settings for doing this on a JuBelle are already posted at the end of the JubScala thread.

 

Sorry about being a bit more insistent about understanding your true preferences on bass slam: I've found that the forum divides itself just about in two along those lines (horn-loaded vs. direct radiating)--and you can guess which type of bass design that I prefer.  There are those on this forum that really don't dislike that added bass distortion and that actually prefer vented direct radiator bass boxes to more accurate horn-loaded bass.  I've never had that problem.

 

With the Jub bass bin, I don't believe that you have to take sides since it has a very authoritative bass performance that can pump out "slam" if you wish, albeit through setting the EQ (using REW) to assure rising response down to its 31 Hz in-room -3dB point.  I cross over at 40 Hz to my dual SPUD TH subs with time alignment and EQ of both Jub bass bin and SPUD performance for a smooth crossover.

 

Chris

Edited April 4, 2015 by Chris A

[jason str]

Alex, i predict a JubScala in your future. If you like the natural midbass peak of the LaScala bass bin you may be back for more.

 

Do listen to as many systems as you can though to be sure you are content with your system, its time well spent.

[Marvel]

I have always loved horn bass, My question simplified would be whether dual la scalas bass bins would sound compared to a single jub bass bin. I dont know if anyone has ever considered or run anything like dual la scala bass cabs per side and maybe me even considering this is stupid in a way but i am just curious. I really do appreciate all the help and knowledge.

There has been posted on here in the past someone who used dual LS bass cabinets, but good luck on finding it.

 

DJK built lots of LS bass bins for PA use (just the 2 x 2 x 2 bass cabinets) and has talked about the performance of four on a side, but I can't find any of that right now. Even two would start taking up more room. a single MWM on each side would actually work quite well (that's what Clause had in the past), and I believe you could actually turn them up on end, but you would have to build some way to stand them up.

 

Bruce

[Wrinkles]

I thought the JubScala was wonderful and it truly was. I moved up to the K402 on a Jubilee bass bin clone. Low power listening was great with both, but the huge room filling sound of the Jubilee just overshadows the JubScala. If there had not been a pair of Jubilees in the area I would still have been a very happy camper with the JubScalas.

[Full Range]

Here is the Jubilee system currently available on the Klipsch website - http://www.klipsch.com.au/search?q=Jubilee

[PrestonTom]

Here is the Jubilee system currently available on the Klipsch website - http://www.klipsch.com.au/search?q=Jubilee

Interesting. It looks like the photo for the Jubilee is the incorrect model.

[OO1]

 

Here is the Jubilee system currently available on the Klipsch website - http://www.klipsch.com.au/search?q=Jubilee

Interesting. It looks like the photo for the Jubilee is the incorrect model.

 

Please explain

[MORE KLIPSCH PLEASE]

Hey Alex....just let me throw this in the mix......imho.....when I want to put the BASS in da'house... I will power up my ChorusII's.... I have always called my ChorusII's my chest pounders.......Yes I to love that chest pounding bass....

And when I power them up....I put big power in them to get those woofers woofing......the Carver TFM55x is called upon.....380 watts @ 8 ohms and those ChorusII's will thump.

That Carver will make those Chorus pound like no other amp I have used......it will crush my two Adcom 555II's bridged....

Anyway that's my two cents.....and again imho....

MKP :-)

[PrestonTom]

 

 

Here is the Jubilee system currently available on the Klipsch website - http://www.klipsch.com.au/search?q=Jubilee

Interesting. It looks like the photo for the Jubilee is the incorrect model.

 

Please explain

 

Have a look at the mid range on the "Jubilee"

[juniper]

Surprised to hear people comparing the sound of the la scalas with the jubilee.... I have heard la scalas and they were painful to my ears. Maybe it was the room or the eq. I just read 17 pages about la scalas on audioK a lot of people agree. What a strange polarizing speaker. 

[jason str]

Surprised to hear people comparing the sound of the la scalas with the jubilee.... I have heard la scalas and they were painful to my ears. Maybe it was the room or the eq. I just read 17 pages about la scalas on audioK a lot of people agree. What a strange polarizing speaker. 

 

 

 

LaScala's should not be used as earrings or headphones, doing so may cause pain and discomfort.

 

Many, many more than 17 pages here about those who love them, driving them with the right gear makes a difference.