moray james Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Well if it was me and I was going to use any of the B & C drivers you mentioned I'd move the crossover from Bass to Mid as high as I could within the spec's of the woofer, cabinet and port size. curious as to your rational for this suggestion? I have alwas been under the impression that the lower you could cross your horn (assuming it was up to the task and could control polar patterns well at crossover) that was a significant advantage because you would then have the directivity control of the horn and more of the mid coming from one source. Woofers get lots of lobes at mid frequencies and due to their large physical size this results in multiple location sources and can negatively impact stage and image. The only reason I can think of for running a woofer up higher is to maximize output of the system. The old 500 Hz xover two way is still for all its compromises one of my favorites though expensive to do well. Thanks for any comments you may have to share. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 The driver and the size of the mid-horn. Look at the recommended crossover point not the raw response....they don't recommend those crossover points for nothing. http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-DE85TN-1.htm http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-DE750TN-1.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinsweber Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) Go to ALKs site he has tested both that low and they work great. Ive used both crossed at 500 and had really solid results. If cash was king the BMS would be my choice but they dont simply fit. Im more focused on messaging the wood work to ring out the last once of performance :-). Edited April 21, 2015 by justinsweber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 well I've run them and they don't IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorm Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Just spoke with Al. He says I can go Ap12-350 if I wanted, but that a AP12-500 was the prob best choice. Im debating on trying the AP15-6000 or the ES5800... I know the ES network and will prob lean that way. If I remember correctly the Kappa pro can be used in must smaller cabs without many ill effects. That said, The vol was increased ever so slightly to bal against the mid horn size. Id have to look at my bass box calualtions. Not to steering you one way or another. I have had both the ES500 and AP12-500 on my Cornscalas. (Very Similar to yours). Switching back and fourth between the ES and the AP12 was a night and day difference in image and sound quality. I do still like the Ap12-500s though. I'm currently using three of them on my HT system downstairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) The driver and the size of the mid-horn. Look at the recommended crossover point not the raw response....they don't recommend those crossover points for nothing. http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-DE85TN-1.htm http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-DE750TN-1.htm Ok given the context of these particular drivers I would have to agree with you. Different drivers and or different horns and a lower crossover could be viable especially if max output levels are not the desired goal. Look at the K55 which can be crossed ridiculously low with the right horn and the right expectations. My previous comments were intended in a generic way and not specific to this situation I apologize for that. Matching driver to horn will be the order of the day here and if the ones mentioned are in fact a good match to the horn used here then yes crossover adjustments are in order. That or a DSP to be able to butt the woofer right up to the mid and have very steep xovers. Best regards Moray James. Edited April 21, 2015 by moray james Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 In my first post I stated "if it was me" I don't care for steep crossovers or DSP... I'm a less is more kind of guy of course unless less won't do the job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 In my first post I stated "if it was me" I don't care for steep crossovers or DSP... I'm a less is more kind of guy of course unless less won't do the job... I would have to agree with you, that would be my preference also. Sometimes folks want a how do I make this work type answer and since the horn has been purchased and the hole has been cut in the baffle I don't see offering a different horn and driver combo suggestion as being much use here, most folks are not going to be willing to step back at this point to start over. Better planning prior would be the order of the day for others reading along to consider. I hope that things work out and that the OP is happy with what he has at hand and the results that they provide. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 When I was spending the big bucks on passive crossovers and building and buying all of ALK's designs, the best I ever heard in the cornwall was the ALK B. He doesn't advertise it anymore. Dean built mine. Basically it was not cost effective but it sure sounded great. I use them to this day in my cornwalls. I didn't like the ESNs in my cornwalls. On Khorns and on the DBBs I am running now yes. Not on my lascalas either. I use ALJ Jr. (X) on lascalas. Justin you should look into the ALK "B" network. Ask either Al or Dean. I also have the schematic as Al left them on his website for DIY download for quite some time then took them down. Now he offers a universal budget network that is compromised compared to the B I am talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 In my first post I stated "if it was me" I don't care for steep crossovers or DSP... I'm a less is more kind of guy of course unless less won't do the job... I would have to agree with you, that would be my preference also. Sometimes folks want a how do I make this work type answer and since the horn has been purchased and the hole has been cut in the baffle I don't see offering a different horn and driver combo suggestion as being much use here, most folks are not going to be willing to step back at this point to start over. Better planning prior would be the order of the day for others reading along to consider. I hope that things work out and that the OP is happy with what he has at hand and the results that they provide. Best regards Moray James. I never suggested a new horn or different driver I just suggested moving the crossover point upward as much has the woofer, cabinet and port will allow. The mid drivers will go down to 400hZ but I think they will perform better if they do not have too is all I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 In my first post I stated "if it was me" I don't care for steep crossovers or DSP... I'm a less is more kind of guy of course unless less won't do the job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 When I was spending the big bucks on passive crossovers and building and buying all of ALK's designs, the best I ever heard in the cornwall was the ALK B. He doesn't advertise it anymore. Dean built mine. Basically it was not cost effective but it sure sounded great. I use them to this day in my cornwalls. I didn't like the ESNs in my cornwalls. On Khorns and on the DBBs I am running now yes. Not on my lascalas either. I use ALJ Jr. (X) on lascalas. Justin you should look into the ALK "B" network. Ask either Al or Dean. I also have the schematic as Al left them on his website for DIY download for quite some time then took them down. Now he offers a universal budget network that is compromised compared to the B I am talking about. I have a pair of the ALK B (version 2) networks just sitting here if interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinsweber Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 I'd love to see the schematic. I asked Al re a 500 vs 600hz crossover point. He didn't think there was much difference. I'll have to rethink it some. I do have to say that I much prefer the sound of the AP12 network to that of a cornscalawal re bass. Seems cleaner. I wish I could hear the ES woofer network it I can't afford it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I'd love to see the schematic. I asked Al re a 500 vs 600hz crossover point. He didn't think there was much difference. I'll have to rethink it some. I do have to say that I much prefer the sound of the AP12 network to that of a cornscalawal re bass. Seems cleaner. I wish I could hear the ES woofer network it I can't afford it anyway. I don't think there is much difference.. to my ears anyway on the more gentle slopes. We obsess about the little things I suppose... but those little things add up and why not have things right how you want them? My opinion on the ES versus the AP depends on how loud you listen. The ES seems to beg to be played loud and sounds good doing it. Don't forget to look at DeanG's offerings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Just go with what you know and like AP12-500 and ES-5800. And keep the pics coming. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinsweber Posted April 27, 2015 Author Share Posted April 27, 2015 Crossovers ordered from Al. Parts comming in from parts express. Need to figure out how to brace the mod horn in some creative way. The finish was totally exhuasting... 4 cabs. I kept the finisher an extra day to look after all the details I wanted and then cleanup was 4 hours. The end result seems worth it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angusruler Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 really nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khorn4 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Very Nice, I wish I had the time to build some! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Please don't forget to blacken the inside bottom of the rear baffle so the all black vent effect is maintained. Vents should either match the external veneer or be black like yours are. Great looking build so far is there going to be any brace work going into the cabinets? Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinsweber Posted April 28, 2015 Author Share Posted April 28, 2015 Already done :-). The Shelf is an integreated support. The Mid horn will have 2 braced and its top and bottom. So should be pretty stout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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