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K-402 in wood!

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I think where I differ from the classic Klipsch approach is that I always hear some unwanted artifact in the folded bass bins. It's annoying enough that I prefer the distortion of the direct radiator, and then I can further justify that by the monitors used in the creation of the music I enjoy.

 

Remember that the bass bins that you listened to in Hope were basically not EQed to remove the rather significant frequency response peaks in the 40-250 Hz band, and there are some really big peaks there that need taming (just like the Khorn bass bin). 

 

I'm not sure why those bass bins were not EQed out since so much effort was spent EQing the K-69-A/K-402, K-69-A/K-510, and TAD TD-4002/K-402 combinations to within +/- 1.5 dB.  Do that to the bass bins and you'll hear something completely different--albeit preserving some rising LF response below the room's Schroeder frequency.  At least one of the group there voiced a preference for "having that extra energy in the mid-bass region", an opinion that I didn't share, and have since found that taming it really changes the listening experience.

 

Chris

 

Chris, you caught my attention on this one. The recommended EV DX38 settings have PEQs at 180 and 300Hz to knock down those two peaks by about 4dB. Even after EQing the peaks are still there (but diminished). Have you set your filters to knock them down even more?

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See https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/141232-my-first-watt-experiment/?p=1591188

 

The plot below is a composite of measurements taken at 1 metre in front of the three speakers: left Jub (blue trace), center JuBelle 3-way with CP25 tweeter (green trace), and right Jub (orange trace).  The big dips in response around 200-500 Hz are non-minimum-phase cancellations due to room-microphone positions,i.e., if you move the microphone, the cancellations change:

 

front three spks - one metre + sub on jubs.png

 

Note that I'm now using a Yamaha SP2060 that has more input and output PEQs, and two more output channels than a Dx38.  I think that I updated the bass settings in October to further tame the remaining peaks.

Edited by Chris A

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I think where I differ from the classic Klipsch approach is that I always hear some unwanted artifact in the folded bass bins. It's annoying enough that I prefer the distortion of the direct radiator, and then I can further justify that by the monitors used in the creation of the music I enjoy.

 

Remember that the bass bins that you listened to in Hope were basically not EQed to remove the rather significant frequency response peaks in the 40-250 Hz band, and there are some really big peaks there that need taming (just like the Khorn bass bin). 

 

I'm not sure why those bass bins were not EQed out since so much effort was spent EQing the K-69-A/K-402, K-69-A/K-510, and TAD TD-4002/K-402 combinations to within +/- 1.5 dB.  Do that to the bass bins and you'll hear something completely different--albeit preserving some rising LF response below the room's Schroeder frequency.  At least one of the group there voiced a preference for "having that extra energy in the mid-bass region", an opinion that I didn't share, and have since found that taming it really changes the listening experience.

 

Chris

 

Chris, you caught my attention on this one. The recommended EV DX38 settings have PEQs at 180 and 300Hz to knock down those two peaks by about 4dB. Even after EQing the peaks are still there (but diminished). Have you set your filters to knock them down even more?

 

 

Fyrpwr bought Jubs and brought me over to dial in an active xover. I've been at his place several times and he has a really nice room with well behaved low frequency behavior. We started with Roy's settings, but then I went through and pulled out the peaks just like you did. He was running the EV DH1A up top so all of that was different, but try as I might, I couldn't get that sound removed from the bass. He was a stickler for noise in the system so he ended up pulling out his Dx38 - even after I modded it to lower its output noise floor. He reverted to passives last time we talked.

 

This is going off memory again, but I think I recall the polars doing weird things at those frequencies too....maybe Roy's settings were trying to account for the total power response?

 

One thing to keep in mind is that any acoustic anomaly imparts its full effect on any non-linearity in the system. So all the distortion products and whatnot don't get fixed by the EQ - and where you're filling dips it actually makes the distortion worse. Granted this is a second order effect, but something has gotta explain the subtle audible characteristic.

 

I'm just waiting for Roy to come out with a 20Hz version of the K402. I'll build a house around it if I have to...

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We started with Roy's settings, but then I went through and pulled out the peaks just like you did. He was running the EV DH1A up top so all of that was different, but try as I might, I couldn't get that sound removed from the bass...This is going off memory again, but I think I recall the polars doing weird things at those frequencies too....maybe Roy's settings were trying to account for the total power response?

 

I assume that this is what you're talking about.

 

jub_waterfall.jpg

jub_final.jpg

 

iPhone 001.jpg

 

Actually, the polars get fairly good below 370 Hz.  I do wish that I understood better your what your "...that sound removed from the bass" sounds like.  Are you sure it wasn't the room and/or your listening position(s)?

 

KPT-KHJ-LF-Horiz.jpg

KPT-KHJ-LF-Vert.jpg

Edited by Chris A

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I think that I updated the bass settings in October to further tame the remaining peaks.

 

Here is a measurement from below 10 Hz to 150 Hz on the right Jub plus the subs that I did in December.  You'll see a little phase shift above 50 Hz which is controlled by the 40 Hz crossover and time delay for the TH subs, which I corrected thereafter (and promptly forgot to save the measurements).

 

right jub+subs.png

post-26262-0-60040000-1430508844_thumb.p

Edited by Chris A

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Actually, the polars get fairly good below 370 Hz.

I believe that dip was due to how the couch and coffee table was interacting with the mic location I picked near the listening position. I actually had a whole slew of measurements that would better show what was happening, but I lost all of it when my laptop died - and I haven't had a chance to recover the drive (otherwise I could just grab the other measurements). I had to reread that thread to jog my memory and it looks like that specific plot was chosen to show the clean LF behavior of his room.

 

I think those coverage plots you posted are a bit misleading because they're tracing the 6dB down point. It doesn't show the clover leafing the same way a polar plot might.

 

All that to say, that frequency response plot is certainly not representative of the EQ we did to the midbass region.

 

Are you sure it wasn't the room and/or your listening position(s)?
 

Quite certain....I've heard it in every single Jubilee setup, and really every folded horn for that matter, which includes quite a few other speakers as well. There's just this cavernous banging a tub like sound, and you really notice it with bass guitar. For the sake of argument, let's assume that it's not because I want the distortion from a direct radiator back. All the straight midbass horns I've heard don't exhibit whatever it is I'm hearing. It's much more subtle than I'm describing it, but it's totally there. It definitely depends on the source material too....there's probably plenty of music that doesn't stimulate the artifact.

 

Maybe I shouldn't bring it up because it'll probably nag at you if you happen to hear it. It sounds to me like a poorly braced subwoofer cabinet, so maybe it's just a panel resonance I'm hearing - which could also be the drywall surrounding the speaker? The small cavities surrounding the speaker will act like a compression chamber of a horn, which may be amplifying things in some scenarios.

 

Honestly, it's that sound that has stopped me from wholesale jumping into the Jubilee for my own listening (that and the cost, but racing ain't exactly a cheap hobby either).

 

 

But now we're talking about the bassbin, and our friend overseas is looking for a K402....talk about derailing a thread :)

 

A while ago I calculated that you'd want the horn to be within 1/20" of the design to have a minimal impact on performance at 20kHz. I know that gasket on the K402 is a bit thicker than that though - maybe 1/8", but then the 2" throat is causing the higher frequencies to not follow the horn anyway.

 

If someone could get me the vertical and horizontal profiles, then I could show them how to make a wood version of the horn. It'd require a CNC and a press to essentially make a 30" thick piece of plywood. You would would then cut / shave two of the flares by hand and fill the corners with wood filler...

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The Jub bass bin is good below 250 Hz in terms of "cloverleaf polars" since that is below the frequency where you're your approaching 1/3 of the mouth-to-mouth (horizontal) frequencies that will begin to interact.  So I really don't believe that this is a polar thing.

 

As far as your "banging tub like sound", I've never talked to anyone that has heard that, or at least described such a sound. 

Edited by Chris A

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Why didn't you invest in K-402s and K-415s?

Edited by Chris A

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Tom,

 

Here is a listing of my Jub settings for my SP2060--enclosed below.  The columns highlighted in yellow are for the Cello Palette that Mike Beasley uses.   Since I'm remastering all my recordings, I find that I do not use the SP2060 to do EQ duty for specific recordings.

Klipsch Jubilee-TAD 4002 - EV Dx38 Settings 2 Oct 2014.pdf

Edited by Chris A

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I am getting more information than I ever wanted. It's so good. By the way I decided building a lower CF tractrix horn than the v-tracs I have, just to hear the difference. I will either build cf190 or cf165.

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I wonder if the 402 could be veneered in wood?

Greg

With the right contact cement, and probably some paper thin veneer. Then you would have to cut the pieces exactly to the shape of the horn flare. Which I am sure you knew all that. Question is, are you up for the challenge? If you give it a go and they look hideous, you can just send them to me :D . Edited by duder1982

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Why didn't you invest in K-402s and K-415s?

The 415 ain't horn loaded, and I was hoping for something with better performance above 7kHz without going the TAD route.

Although my high frequency hearing is certainly starting to decline now so maybe I won't be able to tell the difference anymore. The K402 has gotta be nearly twenty years old now?

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Although my high frequency hearing is certainly starting to decline now so maybe I won't be able to tell the difference anymore.

 

 

If you wore ear-plugs at night....  it would mute any snoring that might occur.

 

:wacko:

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:) you've been talking about it for seven years....right?

 

No...the K-402 is new, but only your perceptions might make it old.

 

And I'm a bit confused - you say that you like the sound of direct radiating bass bins over horns, but then you want a horn-loaded bass bin?  Can you clarify all this?

Edited by Chris A

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The AES paper for the Jubilee LF was published in 2000 I think. Didn't the K402 exist before then? And then PWK insisted on changing to the K403?

I've always wanted horns, but I'm not sure they make the most sense in the modal / pressure regions of a small room. My target today is a 2-way from 80Hz to 20kHz since I believe that can be achieved with straight horns without being a crazy footprint. Below that I'll just keep adding drivers until the Doppler effect is less (20-80 is only two octaves)...

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K-402/TAD TD-4002 driver measurement at one metre on-axis:

 

 

post-26262-0-54760000-1435837226_thumb.p

post-26262-0-68800000-1435837733_thumb.p

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does anybody know a vendor or dealer of Klipsch in US that can ship a pair of  K69/K402 for me to Turkey or UAE?

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does anybody know a vendor or dealer of Klipsch in US that can ship a pair of  K69/K402 for me to Turkey or UAE?

I used cinequip to order mine to Norway. I believe they were shipped directly from Klipsch. They were not packed very well, but made it here safely except a small insignificant scratch on the base.

http://www.cinequip.com/

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If you have the compression driver available,.. Why not try a prototype with foam board using constrained dampening to minimize vibrations?

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/261427-presenting-trynergy-full-range-tractrix-synergy.html

For that matter, there are plenty of synergy plans out there that could work in place of a k402

Disclaimer: I haven't built any of them - though I plan to custom design / fit one into my oversize belle top cabinet at some point

Just another point of view . Hope this doesn't hurt anyone .

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