mustang guy Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I have actually gone as far as wondering if I could integrate some pro subs along with some typical home theater subs. Probably would sound like a big pile of doo-doo though.ok here is a thought. and as long as i have the room this will be exactly what i will be doing when i move if i have room. what about some pro style subs from 40-80. i will be doing dual kpt-684's. then get two more sealed 18's for a total of 6-8 drivers. 2-4 pro paper cones that can just rip from 40-80hz and then 4 sealed subs to destroy the foundation into the ULF area's? i will keep 4 up front and then 4 near field for a total of 12 18's eventually. that kpt-884 i had you would have loved cory. it was so clean and effortless from18 on up. maybe some 684's could be played on sides with the granite top on them and some nice looking grills? klipsch pro emblem on some sweet cloth grills? Many people would consider this weird, but based on what I know I like as well as my limited knowledge on how everything works, personally I keep thinking something like four Eminence Definimax's up front in a small box then some massive something or anothers in the back for real low LFE would be amazing. I have 4' between the seats and the walls, all kinds of room for a ridiculous ported or horn setup, but placing them there sounds weird with the upper subwoofer frequencies. Those Klipsch R-115SW's sounded killer back there from 20-30 hz though and I'm tempted to try something like that again but with some more powerful 18's that are crossed over lower. Actually two KPT-684's up front would be killer for heavy metal but I'm almost afraid to ask about the cinema line again. Those things and maybe some ported ultimax's behind the seat... goodness. The king of LFE is the Danley DTS10. The new KPT-1802 is also a beast. Neither are cheap. I mentioned lilmike subs. The lilwrecker is extreme bass from about 17Hz to 120Hz. In fact about the same as a DTS-10 with the right driver. The F20 is also a common lilmike build here. It is close to the lilwrecker, just a little less efficient. The KPT-684's, though beastly in output, don't have the LF extension you might be wanting. The new KPT-1802-HLS would destroy it in LFE. In fact, my THT's extend 10Hz lower than them. (I have 2 THT's and 2 KPT-684's) What about that granite slab? If you have some dimensions of it, perhaps an enclosure size can be determined, and then the drivers needed could be calculated for that bin. That was the initial post after all. How big is the granite slab? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWJr Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Carl, that driver specs out with some crazy looking curves. I may be doing something wrong in WinISD. I can see using them in a sealed car sub cause you would get cabin gain. I must be doing something wrong here... In the recommended sealed enclosure, 6cu ft, the sub is -3db at 107Hz. In the recommended ported enclosure, 8cu ft tuned to 28Hz, there is a big 5db dip between 33 and 90Hz, and if you don't count that, the driver is -3db at about 27Hz with a very steep roll off of 24db/octave. Here is the graph. Is it something I did wrong?? You didn't, no. Their specs are wrong on the website. For example, the Q15D2 actually has an Fs of 20.1Hz. Edited April 22, 2015 by DaveWJr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWJr Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 CECAA850, what Ascendant drivers do you have? I've got an Ava18 at the office also and can confirm that its XBL^2 motor gives it >28mm of one-way linear coil travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Here is the graph. Is it something I did wrong?? Don't know. Did you select dual voice coil? Was the Qts and Qes calculated? They look way off. I don't have winisd on this computer. Some of the information on their site was wrong. The biggest thing was the CMS. They had it as .73mm/N, which is way off. This caused the WinISD calculations to be way off as demonstrated above. Also, I had entered the RE as 1.4 and it is 2.8 since there are two voice coils. Oops... Here is the new graph. It looks a lot better, and is now -3db at about 25Hz. Much better... Edited April 22, 2015 by mustang guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Carl, that driver specs out with some crazy looking curves. I may be doing something wrong in WinISD. I can see using them in a sealed car sub cause you would get cabin gain. I must be doing something wrong here... In the recommended sealed enclosure, 6cu ft, the sub is -3db at 107Hz. In the recommended ported enclosure, 8cu ft tuned to 28Hz, there is a big 5db dip between 33 and 90Hz, and if you don't count that, the driver is -3db at about 27Hz with a very steep roll off of 24db/octave. Here is the graph. Is it something I did wrong?? You didn't, no. Their specs are wrong on the website. For example, the Q15D2 actually has an Fs of 20.1Hz. I figured that out... I think my post just now to Carl cleared it up ... some... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Looks more like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWJr Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Here is the graph. Is it something I did wrong?? Don't know. Did you select dual voice coil? Was the Qts and Qes calculated? They look way off. I don't have winisd on this computer. Some of the information on their site was wrong. The biggest thing was the CMS. They had it as .73mm/N, which is way off. This caused the WinISD calculations to be way off as demonstrated above. Also, I had entered the RE as 1.4 and it is 2.8 since there are two voice coils. Oops... Here is the new graph. It looks a lot better, and is now -3db at about 25Hz. Much better... That Fs is still way too high. That driver should be down in the high teens. That's also causing your Vas to be way too low. For comparison, the Ascendant Ava 18 I mentioned above has a Fs of 18Hz and a Vas of 407 liters, and the SI HT18 has a Fs of 17Hz and a Vas of 412 liters. Vas is a function of Cms * (Sd)^2, so something in the 1xx liters range is very low for an 18 unless it is incredibly stiff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 CECAA850, what Ascendant drivers do you have? I've got an Ava18 at the office also and can confirm that its XBL^2 motor gives it >28mm of one-way linear coil travel. I have 4 of the Avalanche 18's in my IB. At the time I built it, they were just about the best available. I think the Fs was 17Hz though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Dave, how do you think a bank of 4 sealed Q18's would work for HT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Here is the graph. Is it something I did wrong?? Don't know. Did you select dual voice coil? Was the Qts and Qes calculated? They look way off. I don't have winisd on this computer. Some of the information on their site was wrong. The biggest thing was the CMS. They had it as .73mm/N, which is way off. This caused the WinISD calculations to be way off as demonstrated above. Also, I had entered the RE as 1.4 and it is 2.8 since there are two voice coils. Oops... Here is the new graph. It looks a lot better, and is now -3db at about 25Hz. Much better... That Fs is still way too high. That driver should be down in the high teens. That's also causing your Vas to be way too low. For comparison, the Ascendant Ava 18 I mentioned above has a Fs of 18Hz and a Vas of 407 liters, and the SI HT18 has a Fs of 17Hz and a Vas of 412 liters. Vas is a function of Cms * (Sd)^2, so something in the 1xx liters range is very low for an 18 unless it is incredibly stiff. We may be in a bit of luck. Data-bass measured and actual Q18 in 2012. I have entered that data into WinISD and run a new graph. The article is here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=98&mset=108 The fs was in the 30hz range with that version of the driver, and the vas was even lower than the one from the website. It is all a bit confusing, but at least a third party has offered some hard numbers: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 The suspension is extremely stiff on those drivers. I'd wager the graph would look significantly different after break in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 The suspension is extremely stiff on those drivers. I'd wager the graph would look significantly different after break in. I noticed they used a 4 cu ft box as well. I believe that's the MINIMUM size box you can put it in. Ficar recommends 4-8 cu ft for sealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 Mustang - granite is about 44" x 128". I paid a deposit so they wouldnt cut it. Im only charged on what I use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Craig, why is the Vas so far off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Metro, no room for an IB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWJr Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Here is the graph. Is it something I did wrong?? Don't know. Did you select dual voice coil? Was the Qts and Qes calculated? They look way off. I don't have winisd on this computer. Some of the information on their site was wrong. The biggest thing was the CMS. They had it as .73mm/N, which is way off. This caused the WinISD calculations to be way off as demonstrated above. Also, I had entered the RE as 1.4 and it is 2.8 since there are two voice coils. Oops... Here is the new graph. It looks a lot better, and is now -3db at about 25Hz. Much better... That Fs is still way too high. That driver should be down in the high teens. That's also causing your Vas to be way too low. For comparison, the Ascendant Ava 18 I mentioned above has a Fs of 18Hz and a Vas of 407 liters, and the SI HT18 has a Fs of 17Hz and a Vas of 412 liters. Vas is a function of Cms * (Sd)^2, so something in the 1xx liters range is very low for an 18 unless it is incredibly stiff. We may be in a bit of luck. Data-bass measured and actual Q18 in 2012. I have entered that data into WinISD and run a new graph. The article is here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=98&mset=108 The fs was in the 30hz range with that version of the driver, and the vas was even lower than the one from the website. It is all a bit confusing, but at least a third party has offered some hard numbers: The suspension is extremely stiff on those drivers. I'd wager the graph would look significantly different after break in. I do know that they've gone the multi-spider route lately, perhaps that's what's going on to some extent. Even then, a Vas of 110L for an 18" driver is extremely unusual unless it's car audio specific: small box, high power. The Q line is (was) intended to be their non tiny enclosure 2kW/ea offering. Perhaps times have unfortunately changed. If they've really gone the high stiffness route, then nein for HT use, unfortunately But I guess the market drives the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 The Q line is (was) intended to be their non tiny enclosure 2kW/ea offering. I wouldn't think 4 to 8 ft boxes would be considered tiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Metro, no room for an IB? The question is where I'd fire the back. Behind the screen is my laundry room. If I fire it into that the whole house will shake and and the washer would have to be relocated. My only choice would be to flip the entire room 90 degrees and fire them into my garage. Neighbors probably wouldn't like that normally but at least I live out in BFE. That's a possibility and we have talked about it due to the lack of seating but I will lose all my surround wiring. Otherwise under my floor or in the attic maybe but the rest of the house would probably hear everything and cutting the floor and ceiling makes me nervous. Edited April 22, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted April 22, 2015 Author Share Posted April 22, 2015 Anybody ever heard these? http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_ftw_21.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 If you fire into the attic the insulation eats up the bass, it's pretty much a non issue. That would be my first choice. I've seen IB's that fire into the garage but have no idea what sort of collateral damage they produce. As far as cutting into the ceiling goes, you're just cutting sheetrock, nothing structural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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