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Why so many NJ teachers are retiring......


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Oscar, your point is well taken.  However, the decision to use direct discussion with my daughter as opposed to getting the school involved is, I believe, generational (the incidents I described occurred decades ago).  My wife, I, and all of our contemporaries believe that it's impossible to shelter a child from the realities of the world.  Consequently, we always promoted an open environment where any issue could be, and was, discussed.  Our daughter, and all her friends, knew the score about relevant social issues when they were very young.  This was our way of being diligent and participating.  And it worked very well.  There was no need to get the school involved in the bus incidents because, short of putting a cop on every school bus, installing cameras, or asking the driver to frequently pull over and walk back there to see what was going on, it could not have been stopped. Sure, she "tested the waters" a bit, but always found out that the advice she had been brought up with was sound.  Contrast that with today's "helicopter parents" who control every aspect of their kids' lives to such a degree that they are incapable of making any decisions on their own.  Heck, I know parents around here who have given up careers and moved to the town in which their kid attended college so they could keep tabs on things and be in total control!  So, it comes down to philosophy, and I'm not going to say that mine is necessarily better than another.  It worked for my daughter and her friends so I can't complain.  But to get back to my opening premise, there's just too much "political correctness" applied to situations in which it isn't warranted.  Given the illicit drug issues, weapons, and other serioius matters at even the elementary school level, making a fuss over the tooth fairy seems ludicrous.  One more comment on the different generational issues- when I was a kid growing up in a rough neighborhood, it was common to give someone a bloody nose after school (usually in the school yard) if you didn't like them.  Often, of course, we shook hands and became friends afterwards.  Today, when that occurs, the parents of the "injured" kid sue the school, sue the parents of the "bully," get a restraining order, demand that the "bully" get psychological counseling, get the police involved (especially if the kids happen to be of different nationalities), get the story into every newspaper in existence, demand that the "bully" be suspended from school, and so on.  It sucks, and I'm thankful that I don't have any kids or grandkids who have to be involved in the lunacy.

Wow, my fingers are tired from all this typing!  Glad that I'll be in the shop all day tomorrow.  Soldering is far less taxing!!!  Thanks for the great discussion guys. Hope I didn't stir the pot too much.

Maynard   

Maynard.........  Appreciate the response and your very circumspect approach to parenting your own children.  But there is another and perhaps bigger issue here and it is the character of the community and what it accepts as behavioral norms.  The girls whose parents failed them were being victimized (I think we agree).  The boys victimizing those girls needed something between serious discipline and profound counseling.  They all grew into young adults with some very unsavory baggage and who knows how well each of them dealt with it.  As for the schools they do have expulsion and they can remove transportation privileges.  That was one clear occasion where action was 100% required on everyones part.  I can not believe that any parent informed of what those kids were doing would not be deeply grateful for it being brought to their attention. 

 

Outrageous behavior is an outrage and it is during those formative years that behavioral boundaries need to be established.  Help the schools do this by reporting outrageous behavior.  I will not guarantee that anything will be done - but the responsible parent does need to do their part IMHO.  

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I think saying the parents are lying is a bit harsh--it’s all in good fun and 99% of the kids are fine when they start growing up and realize that the parents were just bringing a bit of joy to a bleak world.  I look around today, and it doesn’t take much study of history to see that “societies” are always screwed up -- why not let the kids avoid it for as long as possible?  There will be a certain percentage with a victim mentality that will never take accountability for their actions and will point fingers at virtually everyone for being the blame…even if it’s claiming that the parent told them Santa Claus was real and that’s why they can’t trust anyone today.

FAR more kids have grown up without this messing with their adult minds, so I’m going with the odds and saying that it’s ok to bring some fun to your child’s life. 

Personally, i would find it much easier to believe that Santa Claus is real than i would believing a campaign speech from our beloved politicians (either party). 

I guess life has gotten to the point where it sucks so bad that “innocent fun” is under attack.

I feel sorry for … everyone.

Edited by BigStewMan
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Innocent fun is not under attack, and lying isn't part and parcel of fun. Lying isn't made honorable by calling it fun. And most importantly, lying has nothing to do with using or exercising one's imagination.

When parents go to lengths to create and preserve these fantasies, like tooth fairies, they are teaching the value and the utility of lying. The effects on children can not be determined easily, if ever. But, let's use the usual analysis and just assume that children do learn their values from their parents.

Nope, it's not the end of the world. No, it's not the worst thing parents can do. But, why do it? It's absolutely not necessary in order to have fun or exercise imagination. So why? If one really wanted to have kids exercise their imagination it would be better to have the kid make up their own game about their lost teeth.

The danger of teaching the benefits of lying are clear enough. But, there is also the danger of promoting magical thinking. That will hinder people their whole life.

 

I was only joking about the parent being a liar, on this one - the tooth fairy. There is a big difference in someone who is a liar and telling a little ghost stories around a camp fire. So, I can't agree that it's going to harm the child because of the tale about santa, fairies, ghosts or dragoons. 

 

I do agree with your last statement. Religions have been grabbing people in their formative years and indoctrinating them for as far back as records show. The kids grow up promoting the same beliefs. 

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The Santa Claus or tooth fairy tales are part of our culture and often represents a milestone, or coming of age in a child's life, particularly in families with multiple children.

 

Parents can leave presents under the tree to an under 6 kid with the tag "from Santa to Jimmy" and that's OK.  Parents can hear a noise outside near Christmas and ask the child "I wonder if that's Santa?"  All of those little things spark imagination, are OK.

 

But when a child confronts a parent and asks for the truth, that is the time to be honest, because it goes to trust.  Most (good) parents will bring an older child in on the act, and say "we know you are a big boy now, but don't tell your little sister."  The older child will usually feel "grown up" and feel like the parent trusts him, then you swear the older child to silence.  It makes them feel good.  :)

 

By the time a child is in first grade, usually all the children "trusted" with the Santa Claus/Tooth Fairy myths impress their peers with their grown-up status by revealing the secret to the younger ones, so the secret it out either way.

 

To address the opening post, if a teacher is asked a question, any question by a child, an honest answer is required.  I suppose the teacher might defer to "ask your parent" or ask "what do you think" to the child, but I would prefer my teachers be honest and straightforward with students.

 

Any parent who goes apoplectic with an honest teacher over this "issue" IMO lacks proper respect for the teacher's role to educate and lacks perspective as to how this whole Santa Clause/tooth fairy thing works.  For most parents, this would NEVER be a problem. 

 

And as we all know, there is always that one percent that seem to cause 99% of the problems, all for nothing.

Edited by wvu80
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Lying is lying is lying is lying. Can you explain the difference in one lie versus another?

 

1. A tooth fairy will bring you money if you put your tooth under the pillow.

2. Invest with my company, Ponzi International, and we will generate 100% annual returns, Mr. Jones.

 

The first lie is the parent to the child. The second lie is the grown up child to an investor. How are they different fundamentally? Because one is "joking and fun?"

 

No, I am not suggesting causality in my example. But you have to ask yourself, why teach lying with rewards? What's the possible benefit? Look, if you want to have fun, ask the child to make up their own game of what to do with the tooth.

 

I used to have the same black or white lines too. There is a difference in trying to convince someone of something for gain, or to avoid trouble or... Even what some call white lies are still lies. BUT, it's different to tell a tale for fun and there is no harm.

 

To tell someone to send money just to steal or to say "I didn't break that" when I did, is different than telling you that Miss America keeps sending me pictures of her balloon knot. 

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My point is that there is NO BENEFIT of any kind to lying or telling such takes.

 

I'm not so sure that's true, but I say that in a gentle way, as I like a lot what you are saying.

 

There are a couple of benefits to propagating a myth.  The first is in socialization of children, or in teaching them the morays and customs of the world in which they live.  Even if a child doesn't participate in Christmas (and many families don't for religious reasons) the child should understand that others do, and at the proper time will make that decision for themselves.

 

The second reason has to do with reality checking, and growing beyond childlike thinking and adapting a more grown-up view of the world around them.

 

You've used the word "magical thinking" a couple of times.  I'm not sure if you are using that colloquially or technically, but that is a really good word to describe some kinds of thinking, in particular unhealthy thinking in adults.

 

Magical thinking (the technical or psychological version, if you prefer) describes thinking that is not grounded in reality.  A person with magical thinking may have an idolized fantasy about how the world "should" be and makes no effort to realty-check to see if their ideas are practical.

 

In general it is OK for children to have some magical thinking because the cognitive side of their brains is not developed, and magical thinking helps them organize and cope with a complex adult world and translates it into something they can process.  As the child grows and the thinking side develops the person achieves a little more balance between the two and can discern one from the other.  People who are psychotic or schizophrenic often have magical thinking, literally taking a break from reality and living in a fantasy world that if left unchecked, would lead to their inability to care for themselves, sometimes in the extreme resulting in their own death or harm to others.

 

I don't mean to be disagreeing with you, I'm just trying to add the little I know to the conversation.  I like your ideas and I think you express yourself very well.

Edited by wvu80
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Mark, what is your opinion on children's books? Should they all be non fiction? Are you saying it's unhealthy to read these books to our children as they contain lies?

 

What Carl is pointing out (brilliantly IMO) is not a difference so much in our philosophies, but a failure in our language.  The word "lie" is so rigid yet is used inadequately to describe a multitude of complex and subtle actions.

 

I am not a liar, I am a truthful person.  Yet have I ever told told a lie?  Of course the answer is "yes," but does that singular act define me as a person forever, as a liar?

 

We need our lawyer friends to chime in and help us with this one.  B)

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Magical thinking is the belief that gods and demons and fairies are actual ACTORS in the universe. (respectful Snip, I just wanted to reference the post)

 

I see what you mean.  FYI I was trained in psychology where magical thinking has a more specific meaning, like I described further upstream. The clinical application might be (for instance) in working with an young man whose father is in jail. 

 

He says he really doesn't need to finish high school because his father knows someone who will give him some land when he gets out of jail.  He doesn't need his education to get a job because when his dad gets out of jail, they will live off the land in the woods in the house he and his dad will build. 

 

In my world, that is magical thinking.  It is identified with the help of the therapist, then the young man will be guided or taught to reality check his ideas to see if his ideas are possible or probable.  We try to deal with probable outcomes, and not every magical possibility.  Martians also might drop down to earth and give him a million dollars which is possible, but not probable.

 

I hope you understand what I am getting at, I just look at that sort of thinking from a different perspective.  Your perspective is just as good, and your points are well taken.

Edited by wvu80
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If I handed my kid Moby Dick, I'd tell him the first half of the book is guaranteed to put him to sleep after a few pages, so keep it by your bed.  Then I'd say stick with it because it is truly amazing and you will be thrilled by how good it is.  That way I would not be lying.

Edited by oldtimer
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Hmm mmm? It looked to me like Carl was equating, or comparing fiction to lying. Those are not related, so I kind of reject the comparison.

 

I think they are related and I suppose that's where we'll differ.  You are presenting a story to your child.  The words are coming out of your mouth.  Just the fact that you're reading it to your child gives it credibility in their eyes.  They imagine the story is real.  You could say it's a lie by omission if you never give a disclaimer to your child before or after reading it.

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Hmm mmm? It looked to me like Carl was equating, or comparing fiction to lying. Those are not related, so I kind of reject the comparison.

 

I think they are related and I suppose that's where we'll differ.  You are presenting a story to your child.  The words are coming out of your mouth.  Just the fact that you're reading it to your child gives it credibility in their eyes.  They imagine the story is real.  You could say it's a lie by omission if you never give a disclaimer to your child before or after reading it.

 

 

 

The way I have always understood it was that literary fiction tends to be written works that offer deliberate commentary on larger social issues, political issues, or focus on the individual to explore some part of potential human reaction or condition.  There are other types of fiction such as that found in comic books, science fiction, among others.

 

With fiction, in general, I do not believe there is an attempt at misleading or deceiving the reader.  However, I’m not asserting it can’t happen as I seem to remember a book titled “A Million Little Pieces” that was authored by James Frey and originally sold as a memoir.  Does anyone remember the backlash where the spoof blogs came out claiming “A Million Little Lies”?

 

In general, a lie would seem to be an intentionally false statement to a person or group made by another person or group who knows it is not the truth; however, represents the statement to be true.  I believe that the backlash over the book “A Million Little Pieces” would put the two into context where the fictional work is not generally represented as the truth and when it is you can find people to call it out as a lie.

 

Edit: Probably the area of "omission" that I see do the most emotional harm is when parents avoid the conversation of "adoption" and the child finds out later in life through another source.

Edited by Fjd
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The reading I'm referring to is maybe something like Curious George.  A small child's imagination allows them to believe that the story is real.  The fact that the parent reads it to them reinforces that.  As the child grows and becomes aware of their surroundings and how things work, they realize on their own what is real and what is not without someone sitting down and explaining everything to them.  The child is not hurt emotionally or scarred for life because their parents presented this fantasy to them.  The parent (in my opinion) is lying to the child by going along with the fantasy.

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Michael,you say this because it personally doesn't rub across your grain as much as say another form of teacher transgression. We could sit hear ad what if the teacher did this or that to death, but the FACT of the matter is that the teacher stepped out of place intentionally and knowingly, do you really think a verbal reprimand from a partent means ANYTHING to a person that would do this at ANY level??

 

The fact is that these parents felt that the teacher was way out of line, and I fully support that belief.

 

 

The Teacher stepped way out-of-line......weeelllll, I'll agree that She did step out of line, but as to what degree it purely subjective. I would not be happy either, and would have written a letter or two to the school and district superintendent. Maybe even talked to the teacher, depending on how and why she did it.

 

But the kids are 4th graders, so I don't think it's as bad as all that.

 

Now I've got funny story to share with you guys on how I broke it to my youngest daughter.... who as a matter of fact, was a 4th grader at the time. She's now a 6th grader. 

 

It was Saturday evening, and my daughter "Laruen", whom I always call "Manita" (Spanish slang for little sister) came to me while I was stretched out on the sofa half a sleep and watching TV. She had a tooth in her hand, and asked me how much the tooth fair might give for her tooth. I looked it over, and told her not much, because it had a cavity. She giggled, she knew I was funn'in with her, and promptly placed it under her pillow. After an hour went by, I did my best to dress up like a tooth fairy. I was shirtless, belly hanging out, and I borrowed a pink ballerina tootoo to place over my boxers, and put on a loooong hair blond wig my wife used for a halloween party (she dressed as a hooker, but that's another story), then I borrowed from my eldest daughter (2 yrs. older) a party-wand that had a LED lighted star that changed colors and made audible magic sounds every time it was shaken. With my tooth fairy outfit all taped up and holding in place, I pranced my way up the stairs and into my daughters bedroom to see her eyes wide open and in shock. I had a $10 bill in one hand and the wand in the other. I pranced around her bed, took her tooth and gave her the money, before taking off and running back down stairs in haste, because my oldest daughter was busting a move for her camera. Since then, they've begged me to put the outfit back on, and tell all their friends what their dad did.

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I find this an odd controversy. Works of art, are always products of the imagination, and we don't refer to the artists as "liars."

 

The tooth fairy is a product of the imagination yet we refer to the parent as a liar.  One is written one is verbal.  We will agree to disagree as you said.

 

I'd love to have seen Gilbert in his get up :lol:

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With my tooth fairy outfit all taped up and holding in place, I pranced my way up the stairs and into my daughters bedroom to see her eyes wide open and in shock.

 

:blink2:

 

Liar!  Trying to make your daughter think you were the tooth fairy.  :angry2:  :laugh:  :tongue:

 

(I still maintain the language is not adequate to describe all the acts included with the single word, "lie.")

+++

 

and put on a loooong hair blond wig my wife used for a halloween party (she dressed as a hooker, but that's another story),

 

 

Now, let's discuss that hooker story, and we want the truth!    (with pictures, if available)  B)

Edited by wvu80
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"nother scenario.

 

A parent tells his infant daughter that he's going to take his daughter to Disneyworld so that she can finally meet her favorite character Cinderella.  The child is thrilled.  They meet "Cinderella" and the parent doesn't tell her it's just an actress.  The parent has lied to his daughter correct?  I guess I'm a big fat liar then.  My main point is that it doesn't hurt the child in the least to believe these things or to have the parents involved in the deception, or at least it didn't hurt me or my children to have been involved in the process.  I respect other parents rights to raise their children as they see fit.  Once other parents or teachers become involved in how I raise my children is where I have a problem.  Unlike the parents in the story however, I handle my issues face to face or through a direct phone call.  I agree with Thad that this situation was handled incorrectly once social media is involved. 

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Well, a girl went home and told this to her mother who was outraged because she has always told her kids that the tooth fairy is real. The mother then went on social media sites and bashed the teacher for destroying her child's belief system, contacted the school administration to demand an apology, and went to the newspapers with her story.

Makes sense to me. More than half the country believe in magical thinking. These people have less than a passing acquaintance with reality and reason. The idea of lying to children about fairies and demons and other made up characters is a losing strategy. You're teaching kids to mistrust you, and you are training them in magical thinking. Kids have their own imagination to use, and they use it properly and harmlessly.

Education is already suffering. Adding a requirement that teaching must support fantasies of lying patents is just too much.

 

How's about "hey teacher do my children have their reading, writing and ciphering down pat? Probably not so let's stick to that and keep your beliefs about what is real or fantasy to yourself.

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I find this an odd controversy. Works of art, are always products of the imagination, and we don't refer to the artists as "liars."

The tooth fairy is a product of the imagination yet we refer to the parent as a liar. One is written one is verbal. We will agree to disagree as you said.

I'd love to have seen Gilbert in his get up [emoji38]

OK, let's not misunderstand the cases, even if we disagree.

Case 1. A child is told about the mythology of the tooth fairy, or Moby Dick, and the mythology or legend or story is phased on as art or myth. No lies are told.

Case 2. A parent says to a child, "Tonight, the tooth fairy will visit and leave something under your pillow and take your tooth!" That's simply lying.

 

 

I'll agree with Mark. Plain and simple, it's an intentional lie many parents of varying cultures share with their kids. I say share, because more than likely the parent (as in my case) experienced the same thing.

 

I think the word "Lie" strikes a bad image in a lot of people, but the "Lie" itself is not what's bad. It's the intention with which the lie is told that makes it a good thing or a bad thing. It's rarely if ever a neutral thing, i.e. done for a frivolous reason(s).

Edited by Gilbert
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