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Klipschorn vs. B&W 802 Diamond


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I have listened to my new Bowers and Wilkins 802 Diamonds for a few weeks now. The 802 are sitting in front of my Klipshorns. The K-horns are running DeanG crossovers, the 802 are stock. The main difference between the two is efficiency and direct radiator vs. horns. 

My main impression is that the 802 beat the K-horns. They go higher and lower (based on my terrible ears). They consume more power (obviously), but sound better. They are both very detailed speakers. The most in-your-face difference is the 802 reveal all the sloppiness of time delay inherent in the Klipschorn. I never thought I could hear that so easily. The 802 are just more together than the K-horn. Both will go very loud! 

No, the Klipshorns will never be sold. I am going to get some digital processors to see if I can correct the time alignment of the corner horns and then compare again. 

I like the K-horns better for my vintage amps, but that is due to the power issue. 

What is going to happen is that B&W will be powering my HT, while Klipschorns with a Belle in the middle will be in a separate (yet to be constructed) audio-only room.

I hope to get some testing data soon, but this is a very busy time for me at work. Pics will follow sometime soon.

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An interesting comparison.

 

May I suggest a couple more listening tests. First, pay particular attention to the lower couple of octaves on the two systems. It is not just how low does it reproduce, rather it is the quality of the bass (how clean is the sound). Second, pay careful attention to the dynamics (attack of the notes, transients, and the percussive sounds).

 

The two systems should distinguish themselves along those lines.

 

Good luck,

-Tom

Edited by PrestonTom
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The most in-your-face difference is the 802 reveal all the sloppiness of time delay inherent in the Klipschorn. I never thought I could hear that so easily.

 

Interesting.

 

You know that the time delay thing can be fixed--pretty easily.  I'm sort of surprised that Klipsch itself doesn't market a kit to do it.  However, that isn't any real obstacle. 

 

Chris

Edited by Chris A
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So what does the time delay do to the sound and do you have to be listening for it to hear it?

JJK

When time differences are properly adjusted for the different sources (ie: LF-MF-HF of the Khorn) of the loudspeaker system the reproduction of sounds in the crossover frequency regions shared by these multiple sources will exhibit audible improvements in clarity.

miketn

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...Really audible, I might add. 

 

The problem that I see is that so few people here have actually heard the difference: A-B.  The gentleman that has a pair of loudspeakers that are without time delay issues can hear it.

 

Also, fixing some of the "sloppiness" is merely an EQ job--a capability that comes along with fixing the time delays at the crossover regions--and it comes free of any extra charge for the devices to do time delay correction.  The Khorn really does need peak attenuation in the 70-250 Hz midbass region, a couple of peaks at 4.9K and 12.4K (with a little more overall tweeter boost) and a little boost the 30-40 Hz region.  There are a few other irregularities that can be addressed at the same time as these areas.  Additionally, your favorite amplifiers will sound much better, more powerful and cleaner because they are not driving reactance and resistance in passive crossover networks, and multiple drivers with different reactances simultaneously.

 

The difference in listening pleasure is fairly startling, IMHO.

 

Chris

Edited by Chris A
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Preston Tom said:

"May I suggest a couple more listening tests. First, pay particular attention to the lower couple of octaves on the two systems. It is not just how low does it reproduce, rather it is the quality of the bass (how clean is the sound)."

One very important aspect when comparing Two Very High Quality Loudspeaker systems (especially in the frequency region below ~300hz) that should be kept in mind is how each system is exciting the Acoustical Enviroment of the listening room. It's very possible for the enviroment and/or the system's integrations to favor one system over the other and is why reported results can vary so much in this hobby.

miketn

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Strange.  I have heard the B&W top dogs and my impressions are the opposite.  I felt a pair of Cornwall's would have bested them.  They were hooked to killer gear.  I don't think they sounded quite as articulate as the Klipschorn.  They sounded dull and were definitely power hungry.  Heard them with a Carver Lightstar amp and then a pair of huge Threshold mono blocks through a Krell CD player.  Hopefully they were solidly sealed in corners and had up to date networks or network components

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Strange. I have heard the B&W top dogs and my impressions are the opposite.

 

Not strange to me: live with these loudspeakers for a few days and your listening opinions will change. 

 

A lot of people loved the K-69-A driver on a K-510 (or K-402) horn.  After listening to them at home for a couple of days, I began to hear timbre and "cleanness" differences with the Jubs on either side.  Now I know why: there is 14 kHz ringing in the K-69-A drivers that you can see in the impulse plots.  You can also hear a difference when they are crossed with a Beyma CP25 at 8 kHz: no ringing in the impulse plots. I could immediately hear the more natural presentation.

 

Chris

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I should note that my space is a little small for the K-horns. I need to drag a Belle out of storage for the middle. The most obvious difference is the sound stage is much more enhanced with the 802. The sweet spot is now much broader.

Well DUHHHhhh!!!

The whole point of a horn is that it is more efficient because it focuses or beams the sound, so you are going to have to have some distance for the sound to open up!

Roger

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I should note that my space is a little small for the K-horns. I need to drag a Belle out of storage for the middle. The most obvious difference is the sound stage is much more enhanced with the 802. The sweet spot is now much broader.

 

 

 

I think you need to buy B&W center while the grapes still taste good..  Im just down the road, let me come purchase that single Belle.

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Preston Tom said:

"May I suggest a couple more listening tests. First, pay particular attention to the lower couple of octaves on the two systems. It is not just how low does it reproduce, rather it is the quality of the bass (how clean is the sound)."

One very important aspect when comparing Two Very High Quality Loudspeaker systems (especially in the frequency region below ~300hz) that should be kept in mind is how each system is exciting the Acoustical Enviroment of the listening room. It's very possible for the enviroment and/or the system's integrations to favor one system over the other and is why reported results can vary so much in this hobby.

miketn

This is a truth that can't be understated, I have heard the 802's with some huge mac S.S. mono blocks, in a room that was "treated" and so much information was distorted or colored or missing it was surprising. ... Notes just hung on and were very unnatural to my ears.... what lacked also was the clarity and the presentation of a well implemented system...

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So what does the time delay do to the sound and do you have to be listening for it to hear it?

JJK

 It just jumps out at you. I never noticed it until doing the A/B testing. It is very stark between the two. I love the Klipschorns and will never part with them. The 802 will be joined by a matching center, sub. and 805 Diamonds for the rear. 

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I have a pair of them! Plus a pair of La Scala, Epic, KP201, ETC.

 

 

Hey Im not picky. I will take a solo Belle or LaScala !

 

My K-horns and Belles are in a rare camel grill cloth. Sorry, but I can't part with them. I had sold the Belles and then traded back for them with my 1989 Klipschorns. The Belles were inspected by one of my best friends from my years in Hope, and the Klipschorns were signed by another friend. 

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Preston Tom said:

"May I suggest a couple more listening tests. First, pay particular attention to the lower couple of octaves on the two systems. It is not just how low does it reproduce, rather it is the quality of the bass (how clean is the sound)."

One very important aspect when comparing Two Very High Quality Loudspeaker systems (especially in the frequency region below ~300hz) that should be kept in mind is how each system is exciting the Acoustical Enviroment of the listening room. It's very possible for the enviroment and/or the system's integrations to favor one system over the other and is why reported results can vary so much in this hobby.

miketn

This is a truth that can't be understated, I have heard the 802's with some huge mac S.S. mono blocks, in a room that was "treated" and so much information was distorted or colored or missing it was surprising. ... Notes just hung on and were very unnatural to my ears.... what lacked also was the clarity and the presentation of a well implemented system...

 

I have not powered them with anything but SS at this time. I don't think any of my tube amps will come close to powering the 802. They sound very, very good on everything I have pushed them with. I had no intention of adding more speakers to the fold, but the woman of the house loved the looks of the 802. She also loves the way the Klipschorn sound. I probably would have not gotten them, but at the price I paid.... Needless to say I am pretty much a bargain hunter when it comes to buying gear. The center, matching sub, and the 805's will cost me nearly as much as the 802's did. And, I am still getting a heck of a bargain on them!

My living room is not treated. I haven't run REW on the space, either. I am out of town, or I would post some pics. The 802 are extremely clear and concise. Very detailed. Very precise. 

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I have a pair of them! Plus a pair of La Scala, Epic, KP201, ETC.

 

 

Hey Im not picky. I will take a solo Belle or LaScala !

 

My K-horns and Belles are in a rare camel grill cloth. Sorry, but I can't part with them. I had sold the Belles and then traded back for them with my 1989 Klipschorns. The Belles were inspected by one of my best friends from my years in Hope, and the Klipschorns were signed by another friend. 

 

 

 

I get that. Its pretty dang rare to have a buddy's name on the back of your speakers.  It sounds like you have a lot of cool equipment. What tube amps do you have?

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