Klipschorn vs. B&W 802 Diamond

[Scrappydue]

 

 

Preston Tom said:

"May I suggest a couple more listening tests. First, pay particular attention to the lower couple of octaves on the two systems. It is not just how low does it reproduce, rather it is the quality of the bass (how clean is the sound)."

One very important aspect when comparing Two Very High Quality Loudspeaker systems (especially in the frequency region below ~300hz) that should be kept in mind is how each system is exciting the Acoustical Enviroment of the listening room. It's very possible for the enviroment and/or the system's integrations to favor one system over the other and is why reported results can vary so much in this hobby.

miketn

This is a truth that can't be understated, I have heard the 802's with some huge mac S.S. mono blocks, in a room that was "treated" and so much information was distorted or colored or missing it was surprising. ... Notes just hung on and were very unnatural to my ears.... what lacked also was the clarity and the presentation of a well implemented system...

 

I have not powered them with anything but SS at this time. I don't think any of my tube amps will come close to powering the 802. They sound very, very good on everything I have pushed them with. I had no intention of adding more speakers to the fold, but the woman of the house loved the looks of the 802. She also loves the way the Klipschorn sound. I probably would have not gotten them, but at the price I paid.... Needless to say I am pretty much a bargain hunter when it comes to buying gear. The center, matching sub, and the 805's will cost me nearly as much as the 802's did. And, I am still getting a heck of a bargain on them!

My living room is not treated. I haven't run REW on the space, either. I am out of town, or I would post some pics. The 802 are extremely clear and concise. Very detailed. Very precise. 

 

good for you! i said i would never buy them palladium unless i won the lottery. well i found a sweet deal and jumped. i really like the 802's looks also but my wife is the opposite of yours. she hates them. but she loves the palladiums so they shall stay. 

[Rivervalleymgb]

Mine will not let the Klipschorns or the 802 leave the house!

[Rivervalleymgb]

The tube amps I have are all from old consoles: Stromberg-Carlson, Grundig, Magnovox, and Packard-Bell. I still have a Grundig console in the living room also. None of which have enough to power the 802, but do very well on any of my Heritage speakers.

The 802 need a minimum of 50 watts according to the specs,  but in reality, they need a minimum of 100-150. Ideal would be not less than 250 watts. My favorite vintage amp is a Sansui AU7900 that was heavily modded by Paul Hovenga before he opened his shop. It gets pretty loud at about 40% of the volume dial on the 802's. I have driven them very well with an AVR, Sony DA5300ES. The Sony is very impressive on the K-horns, also. My adcom 555ii (modded) does extremely well, also. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by Rivervalleymgb

[Marvel]

 

So what does the time delay do to the sound and do you have to be listening for it to hear it?

JJK

 It just jumps out at you. I never noticed it until doing the A/B testing. It is very stark between the two. I love the Klipschorns and will never part with them. The 802 will be joined by a matching center, sub. and 805 Diamonds for the rear. 

 

 

If you got the delays straightened out on your Khorns, you would be amazed. Even if you only did the mid to tweeter it would help a LOT.

 

Bruce

[Rivervalleymgb]

My hearing is pretty shot with a loss on upper range, middle range in the range of female voices (at least I use that as an excuse), and constant tinnitus of different frequencies (each ear has its own pitch). What amazes me is that I can hear the difference of the highs that the 802 bring to the table! 

[Rivervalleymgb]

I am looking forward to correcting the delay on the Klipschorns. It is my next audio project. I am enclosing the back porch area as a 2 channel room. It will give me the width I need for the corners. 

One of the things that we have discussed is selling our place and building a smaller house which would have a room specifically designed for the corner horns. I remember the first time I went to the sound room in Hope and heard the Klipschorns with a Belle in the center in 1976. That is what I am striving for. At that time, all the walls had an ever so slight bend to each to reduce flat reflections. We would sit on the couch and spin something in the evenings. All the supervisors and up had keys to the office. Spent many an evening listening to those wonderful sounds. All the equipment was McIntosh in the sound room.

[Rivervalleymgb]

I can understand why the 802 are used as monitors. They are fantastic for near-field listening. Better than my JBL 4333a. 

[LarryC]

If you got the delays straightened out on your Khorns, you would be amazed. Even if you only did the mid to tweeter it would help a LOT.

How would or could you do that?   Larry 

[jjptkd]

In all my years of buying audio equipment I've had the pleasure (and pain) of listening to many different setups and speakers. 99% of the time I walk away feeling pretty smug as my Chorus II's driven by Sunfire power sounds pretty darn good to my ears. I clearly remember being caught of guard on one occasion though by a set of B&W's. They not only had a wide soundstage but what appeared to be a very deep one as well. Sounds just seemed to come from nowhere effortlessly with an amazing smoothness and detail. I remember stopping in front of one of the speakers and just staring in almost disbelief. The owner got kind of a chuckle out of it and said something to the effect of that's what you get out of $12k speakers.

[Chris A]

Find a pair of Jubs to listen to.

[Quiet_Hollow]

My hearing is pretty shot with a loss on upper range, middle range in the range of female voices (at least I use that as an excuse), and constant tinnitus of different frequencies (each ear has its own pitch). What amazes me is that I can hear the difference of the highs that the 802 bring to the table!

That's because comparing is a differential process...not absolute, and therefore doesn't rely on what exactly what's happening.  It's one listening experience subtracted from another...no matter how well or poorly one's ears actually work.

 

As far as any audible difference, Bruce is not joking around. Time aligning any part of the horn is a big deal, in a very positive way.

 

The B&W is, the factory K-Horn is not. OTOH, near-field the B&W is a peach until you pull them out 15 feet out to either side. The inverse square law is not friendly in that regard.

[absolve2525]

So how exactly do you guys time-align the Khorns bass bin with the top hat?

Edited April 28, 2015 by absolve2525

[Fjd]

So how exactly do you guys time-align the Khorns bass bin with the top hat?

 

 

I believe that most are either tri-amping or bi-amping with DSP.  Here are a few good threads on various DSP approaches that you could potentially find useful.

 

 

Greg Oshiro has posted his Yamaha SP2060 DSP settings on page two of the thread below. 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/132275-i-finally-got-around-to-triamping-my-k-horns/

 

 

On page three of Chris A's thread below you can find information related to the Behringer DCX-2496 DSP.

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/123370-settings-for-tri-amping-an-82-belle-with-an-active-digital-crossover/

 

 

I haven't focused too much on the thread below; however, it is titled "MiniDSP to fix time alignement in KHorns without biamping" and could potentially provide a few useable ideas.

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/140101-minidsp-to-fix-time-alignement-in-khorns-without-biamping/

[Rivervalleymgb]

Don't get me wrong, I love my Klipschorns! I have looked at the miniDSP and that is the direction I am going with mine. 

[absolve2525]

Very interesting, FJD! Thanks I will look into those links.

[Marvel]

 

If you got the delays straightened out on your Khorns, you would be amazed. Even if you only did the mid to tweeter it would help a LOT.

How would or could you do that?   Larry 

 

 

Larry,

I made small baffles to sit on top of my LaScalas, and they held the tweeter I was using. I was already using Bob's tweeters in their regular place, but my older son had purchased these to use in a project and I ended up with them. It is the same APT50 driver that Bob used (before they retooled and took them in house) from Eminence, on a larger horn. I placed them on the back of the cabinet and lined the two driver up and close as I could visually. You can move them front to back and really tell the difference when they are in the correct location. So these are not electrically aligned, but acoustically.

 

I also didn't have a problem with reflections off of the top, but tried different materials anyway (foam sheet, carpet, thick wool blanket).

 

The smear at the crossover point disappeared and imaging improved.

 

Bruce

[LarryC]

Thanks, Bruce.  I prefer the idea of acoustic alignment, have never liked the SS crossovers inserted into the system.  Your setup is as cosmetically pleasant as it gets!

 

I have wondered about whether the APT driver and attached horns were as well engineered for polar response (and directivity?) as K-77's in K-horns and Palladium tweets.  (I don't know what's in LS II's.) I wasn't encouraged by my brief experience with the Crites tweeters.

Edited April 29, 2015 by LarryC

[Marvel]

The horn flare on the apt50 driver I used is a 100x50. I don't know what the regular horn on the k77 is, or the horn on bob's ct125. I know you weren't too enamored with bob's tweeter on you khorns.

I could ship mine to you to give a listen if you would be so inclined. I no longer have my La Scala's, so these could go on a road trip.

Bruce

[LarryC]

Bruce, you remember well. I thought I was hearing conflicting dispersion.  However, I didn't check polarity like I should have, so maybe the jury remains out for me.

 

That offer is very kind of you.  However, I do like what I have, and am not being very experimental these days.  So, I'll take a rain check on taking you up on that.  Maybe later on.

 

Thank you!

[DrWho]

I think the 802 is a gem in the world of direct radiator speakers. It's off-axis response is very well behaved, which I believe is the reason for its depth of soundstage, etc.

You mentioned a dramatic difference in highs....Are your khorns fully operational? I would expect a little more sparkle / air with the 802, but I'm not sure I'd describe it as dramatic. Maybe I'm less picky? It's hard to know since we're not hearing your exact setup, but I think it'd be worth double checking your khorns?

Btw, I have personally found that fixing time alignment has a more dramatic affect on transients than imaging. I can almost dial it in by ear listening to snare hits. Ironically the direct radiators of the 802 are going to soften the same transients. I bet the difference becomes more pronounced once you get the khorns dialed in...