Hey you mechanical type....or even, injuneers....

[Coytee]

"I have a bolt"

 

The bolt is one of four. 

 

I also have an industrial backhoe (the big yellow type that you might see lumbering down the road slowing down traffic but I would neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr do that)

 

On the back of the machine is....the backhoe.  It's got two hydraulic cylinders down there that slew the backhoe from side to side.  They are trunnion mounted.  This hoe will dig to 15 1/2' with a 2' flat bottom (it's a big toy for a home owner)

 

The upper mount for the cylinders is part of the machines welded frame.

 

The cylinders are sandwiched between this upper welded frame and a bolt on lower steel plate.  This plate is held on by four bolts about 12" x 1" grade 5, fine thread (or so the dealer told me)....see picture.

 

I had to use a 24" pipe wrench with an approximate three foot cheater bar on one of them 90% of the way before I could finally spin it off with my 1/2" impact wrench.  I think the socket size is something like 1 1/4" or maybe it was 1 1/2" (it's all out in the field)

 

The other three bolts, I was able to simply spin off by using the impact wrench.  Looking at the threads (in the picture), they could probably use some dressing....  so I decided to simply replace all four of them so I know I've got good bolts, costing me $250 net.  (the stupid nuts on them are $25 each )

 

Dealer said "oh, I think those are supposed to be torqued between 300/400 lb/ft"  He went on to say that (since I have a 1/2" impact wrench) he'd just slather them with some red loctite and then put them back on, giving them what the wrench will give them.......and call it done.

 

ok, so that makes me a bit nervous.  I don't mind the process but....  if there is a weak link and something blows back there it will become quite the expensive fix (already spending $950 to repack the cylinders, plus the $250 for the new bolts)

 

I don't have a torque wrench that will go 300 or 400 ft/lb.

 

Since my 1/2" impact took three of them off....is it fair to think it's got the balls to put them back properly?

 

Should I utilize the pipe wrench and cheater bar with all my 150 pounds squealing behind it pushing?

 

Called a rental place and that is a no-go for a 1" torque wrench (size of my socket)

 

What say you?

 

 

[USNRET]

That doesn't look like a 1" diameter bolt, maybe 1" wrench size; looks like a 5/8 diameter or so from here. If I had the part numbers of botls and nuts I could put them in our calculator but this will get you close enough. Bottom line is get them tight and then check to make sure that they don't back off and allow movement. Red would be good if they are tightened properly (or close). That looks to be in shear load so missing the torque a bit should not be an issue (as long as you don't break the bolt).

 

https://www.fastenal.com/en/83/torque-calculator

Edited May 9, 2015 by USNRET

[Ceptorman]

I would try the red locktite and the impact, then check periodically if the nuts are backing off. The impact took three nuts off, I would think to has enough strength for this.

[JJkizak]

I'm kind of wondering why they aren't grade 8. But anyhow you have to clean up the bolt threads and the hole (nuts) threads with the proper class (three classes) taps and dies

to get the proper torque reading, All that old crap has to be removed. You might as well spend the money for a proper torque wrench. If the surfaces are machined

perfectly with 3rd class threads you won't need any Loctite. I forgot the classes but bolts are specifically ordered with special class threads

and you must match what's in the hole or nut.  You must also use the nut that is called for as the length is critical. If they are not machined perfectly you must use the Loctite but you will really cuss up a storm

trying to remove them later on. I am not an engineer but this came straight from an engineers mouth. I have had a few years of experience with these kind of special fasteners in large plastic granulators and never used

Locktite on the threads.

JJK

[wvu80]

To me the issue would not be that they are exactly 400 foot pounds of torque, but that they are ALL the SAME amount of torque.  That way all four bolts are sharing equal loads.

 

It would nice if your dealer would loan/rent you their Big Boy torque wrench.

 

Edit: I just priced 400 ft pound torque wrenches.  They are NOT giving those things away! 

http://www.amazon.com/CDI-Torque-4004MFRMH-4-Inch-Handle/dp/B002LA562Y

+++

 

Can you safety wire the nuts so they don't back off?

 

Edited May 9, 2015 by wvu80

[Coytee]

Without having measured, I'm comfortable to say these are indeed 1" bolts (or a close value if in MM's).  The 1" socket (drive size) that I'm using is something like a 1 1/4 or maybe 1 1/2 size socket (I forget)

 

Dealer said they were grade 5 & not a higher grade so they'd be more apt to bend and not break.  I actually presumed they'd be grade 8 or higher.

 

Regardless....  I'm tossing all the old bolts, buying a brand new set from the dealer so I know they'll all have a clean start (some of the threads on existing bolts look like they've been rounded over a bit)

 

I didn't want to have to mess with buying the parts to clean up the threads or....paying someone to clean up the threads when I can hit the easy button and just buy a new set.

 

Since I will have four extra nuts, I might put those on as a check-nut (or whatever the double nut is called)

 

I did more homework last night.  My wife bought me my impact wrench.  It's an Ingersall brand and I forget what they call it.  Looks like it says it will do 400 ft/lb torque!!  Seems it will go higher when in reverse.

 

I was pretty amazed when she came home with this thing.....very unlike her to think about tools and to get it right (with no disrespect intended)

 

http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com/am-en/products/tools/impactools/maintenance-automotive-impactools/1-2-drive/232tgsl-thunder-gun-street-legal

[DrWho]

What's the highest torque wrench value you have right now? It wouldn't be hard to torque to some known limit, then change to a longer lever arm and push at the same force. Then it's just a matter of finding the right length of the lever, which is easy math....

Edited May 9, 2015 by DrWho

[minermark]

Locktite, Impact and call it good to go, i work on the Farmers stuff all the time and Never Have/Had a problem.

We get a hard bolt first we get a beer, then the cutting torch, life too short to bust knuckles.

[Klipschsonian]

What type of impact and how easily did the bolts come out.

[Gilbert]

Dealer said "oh, I think those are supposed to be torqued between 300/400 lb/ft" He went on to say that (since I have a 1/2" impact wrench) he'd just slather them with some red loctite and then put them back on, giving them what the wrench will give them.......and call it done. ok, so that makes me a bit nervous. I don't mind the process but.... if there is a weak link and something blows back there it will become quite the expensive fix (already spending $950 to repack the cylinders, plus the $250 for the new bolts) I don't have a torque wrench that will go 300 or 400 ft/lb. Since my 1/2" impact took three of them off....is it fair to think it's got the balls to put them back properly? Should I utilize the pipe wrench and cheater bar with all my 150 pounds squealing behind it pushing? Called a rental place and that is a no-go for a 1" torque wrench (size of my socket) What say you?

 

DO NOT USE LOCTITE RED..... Particularly since a 1/2" impact was adequate to remove the majority of the old bolts. Obviously, the bolts removed were not torqued to anywhere near what you're being asked to do. The bolt that gave you difficulty could have been due to damaged threads.

 

Curious, was the Dealer fella you talked to a Mech., or did he look up the value in a shop manual, or was he just covering his arse?

 

If you use Loctite Red, you'll very likely be kicking yourself in the *** when it comes time to remove or replace any of those bolts.... and when you do, you'll need a torch to heat them up... and a BF Impact taboot. 

 

For most applications where bolts are subjected to cyclic loading and/or heavy vibrations Low strength will do the job, or Med. if you want a warm fuzzy..... until it comes time to take it off. Go buy yourself a 3/4" or 1" impact, start lifting weights, and for god sake buy some Kroil. Some applications require the safety wire, but those applications are most common in Aviation, with limited application to Hvy. Equipment mostly where it's critical and generally has something to do that protects the engine or Hyd. pump; (oil, water, hyd. fld.) from burning out and having to be replaced (Big $$$ failures, or LIFE saving threats).

 

FWIW, Torque Specifications for any specific bolt size (dia.) and grades are readily available. You should be able to Google all the information you need regarding the max. torque requirements for you specific bolt. If you still can't find it, PM me, and I'll look it in one of my steel connection design manuals.....

 

HOWEVER, it is relatively rare when bolts require a specific  min. torque spec (I know some guys' gonna give me shyt for that); Most applications are not slip-critical....... WHAT I'm trying to say is, more often than not, bolts size is dictated by "Shear" requirements, particularly for the application you're using..... BUT, it's difficult to tell for certain from the limited view in the photo you provided. Offer a better photo that shows where the bolts are relative to the mechanical linkage/layout. I'm decently familiar with back-hoes, and their operation. Family has always had 1 or 2, including the hyd. extendable bucket that gets you down deep.

 

IF HOWEVER, the bolt application is required to resist a moment, and particularly if their use is required to resist tension, then a min. torque requirement will be necessary. But again, since you were able to use a 1/2 impact to remove most of them, I highly doubt it.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Gilbert

[Gilbert]

We get a hard bolt first we get a beer, then the cutting torch, life too short to bust knuckles.

 

Now you're talking baby!!!

 

My dad is a cheap-asss, he'd buy his tools at one of those road-side tents (Chinese made Buffalo Brand). I called them knuckle buster specials. Not even the screwdrivers were worth a shyt.

 

Dad never turned a wrench in his life, but he liked looking at the tools hanging on his peg-board, and telling me what to do. I was always the one who had to play mechanic and deal with all the nasty shyt. After 2 crushed fingers, and chipped bone in my left elbow, mom asked how'ed it happen..... I said Dad's cheapasss shyt. She gave me the Sears card, and I brought a bigasss Craftman tool set. Rarely if ever had a problem since. 35+ yrs. later, I still have those tools, a few breaker bars have been replaced and the odd abused big screwdriver that was used to pry off stuff..

Edited May 9, 2015 by Gilbert

[Coytee]

I've got a link to my impact gun above.  It's an Ingersall and they call it 'Thunder Gun'.  Not sure that I would have picked it out myself but my wife got it for me and she says she only paid $100.  Came shipped in a new box. I was impressed with her selection.

 

Here's a picture of the underside. 

 

I've owned this machine for....  maybe 15 years now.  First time these have been undone during my tenure.  The only reason they're coming off is the cylinders need repacked.

 

If the red loctite will keep them on until I get rid of the machine or, it buries me.....I'm ok with that.  I don't "want" to have to ever take them off again.  It was a quagmire of gymnastics for me to get the (heavy) cylinders off single handedly.  Getting them back on will be just as interesting although I think I've figured it out.

 

The guy I was talking to was the mechanic at the dealer in their service department.  My machine (JCB) was made around 1986 so it's 29 years old.  Still runs smooth as a Swiss watch but needs some TLC from time to time.  My guess is he doesn't have quick access to the numbers on my machine, a 1550 so he was looking at it's smaller brother, 1400 as I recall. 

 

For a construction company, my machine probably sucks.  For a simple home owner with some surrounding land to play on, it's awesome.

 

 

 

[MercedesBerater]

Just because an impact gun was able to remove a bolt does not mean it has the power to out it back:

1) Impact guns are designed for BREAK AWAY TORQUE

2) Impact guns are NOT CALIBRATED TORQUE APPLICATION TOOLS

3) You can use a torque wrench and a torque multiplier to get to 300-400ft/lbs

However, I'm a nerd for specs. Got drilled in while I was in the Benz schools.

Dash screws? 7in/lbs

Lug studs? 91ft/lbs

Everything was also so darn precise.

What was wrong with

1) Guhtentite?

2) tighten all the way till bolt spins freely, then back off a half a turn

Edited May 9, 2015 by MercedesBerater

[Coytee]

I just remembered I had a manual.  I usually buy a service manual for something but as I recall, it was several hundred dollars for this so I got this PDF manual which is more of an overview.....but.....every now & then it has a good bit of info!

 

If this is indeed a 1" bolt, looks like the chart asks for 715 ft/lb.  I've got a bolt in my car but, don't recall where my venier calipers are.  Looks like a fair difference if it's a 7/8" bolt

 

My torque wrench is a 150 lb wrench.  If I need 480 or 715, how would I go about that?

 

(side note....husband of a gal I work with evidently moonlights fixing these type machines.  I'm in process of asking her if he might have a big torque wrench and want to get hired for an hours job)

 

 

[Quiet_Hollow]

What say you?

Two words:  Torque Multiplier

 

 

Can find used ones for sale on eBay all the time.

 

how would I go about that?

Use the multiplier to reduce the size of wrench / breaker bar required. Also....lube the threads per the instructions (ie. something containing lots of moly not loctite), to reduce the required torque even further. 

Edited May 9, 2015 by Quiet_Hollow

[Gilbert]

I've got a link to my impact gun above.  It's an Ingersall and they call it 'Thunder Gun'.  Not sure that I would have picked it out myself but my wife got it for me and she says she only paid $100.  Came shipped in a new box. I was impressed with her selection.

 

Here's a picture of the underside. 

 

I've owned this machine for....  maybe 15 years now.  First time these have been undone during my tenure.  The only reason they're coming off is the cylinders need repacked.

 

If the red loctite will keep them on until I get rid of the machine or, it buries me.....I'm ok with that.  I don't "want" to have to ever take them off again.  It was a quagmire of gymnastics for me to get the (heavy) cylinders off single handedly.  Getting them back on will be just as interesting although I think I've figured it out.

 

The guy I was talking to was the mechanic at the dealer in their service department.  My machine (JCB) was made around 1986 so it's 29 years old.  Still runs smooth as a Swiss watch but needs some TLC from time to time.  My guess is he doesn't have quick access to the numbers on my machine, a 1550 so he was looking at it's smaller brother, 1400 as I recall. 

 

For a construction company, my machine probably sucks.  For a simple home owner with some surrounding land to play on, it's awesome.

 

 

Those bolts securing the plate directly below the leaking hyd. cyl. will have to be torqued..... and as Mercedesbeater noted, the impact gun can not be used for installing them to the proper (specified) torque, but it's probably what I would be doing if I had the correct sized impact (3/4" or 1" drive), and considering the bolt use and type of equipment, i.e. Big *** Tractor. Put a few drops of Loctite blue before screwing and torqueing down the nuts and you'll be good for another 15+ years. If or, you might just want to get a few big-asss lock-washers instead of the Loctite.

 

 

Have fun!!

Edited May 9, 2015 by Gilbert

[wvu80]

Put a few drops of Loctite blue before screwing and torqueing down the nuts and you'll be good for another 15+ years. If or, you might just want to get a few big-asss lock-washers instead of the Loctite

 

I was also wondering what was wrong with using Locktite Blue.  I always thought Locktite Red was for things like studs on engine blocks, things you would never want to take out during the life of the engine.  Blue should make it solid, but will break off when sufficient torque was applied.

[Coytee]

Side note, I specifically asked about getting lock washers.  They said it was some form of locking nut.  (??)

 

It doesn't have the nylon tip on it....  for my uneducated eyes....it just looks like a big/expensive ($25 each) nut.

 

That said, one of the four bolts did look like the edge of the threads was rounded over.  Maybe that has something to do with it.  (shrugs)

[Gilbert]

I always thought Locktite Red was for things like studs on engine blocks, things you would never want to take out during the life of the engine. 

 

Yes, same here. I've made the mistake of using the heavy duty Red (271), where Blue (242) or even Purple (222) would have been adequate. 

 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't have the nylon tip on it....  for my uneducated eyes....it just looks like a big/expensive ($25 each) nut.

 

Hmmm, are the nuts deformed (slightly crimped and oval at the exterior face); or is the seating face textured or knurled?

Edited May 9, 2015 by Gilbert

[Quiet_Hollow]

The bolt doesn't need loctite. What it needs is the proper install.  Prevailing torque will hold it indefinitely.