Anyone have experience with SET amp and Klipsch ?

[rogerh113]

Hello -

 

I have a set of Forte I speakers, and am considering a SET amp to drive them (vs my current tube PP amp).  A major driving force is the fact that even with a passive line stage, I can turn the volume no more than 1/4 (9 o'clock) for max tolerable listening - the power amp is 35wpc.  I figure I am attenuating the signal from my source by 75% (assuming the volume pot is linear) only to boost it back up again.  Probably having some, potentially significant, impact on sound quality. 

 

In any case, if anyone has listening experiences, set wpc necessary to drive the klipsch well, tube comparisons, etc would be useful.  If you moved from push pull to set, I would be particularly interested in what you though (positives and negatives).

 

Thanks -- Roger

[richieb]

One of the great advantages of the Klipsch line is how well they respond to a wide choice of amplifiers. From 5 watts, even less, to a couple hundred. All depends on the presentation you favor. I currently run KHorns quite successfully in a rather large room with SET amps from 5 to 18 watts. A quality built SET and Klipsch Heritage are generally the sound presentation many on the forum appreciate. Currently running a 45 watt gain clone that's sounds really good. I look for a bunch of responses to this with many being more in depth than I care to go.

[Lemon string]

I run my cornwalls on a 12w class a SET amp and I love it. Very open and airy with great detail, separation of instruments and holographic 3d imaging . The midrange is awesome, the highs are crystal and the bass is balanced never bloated. It has a black background and I never find the combo fatiguing in anyway. This combo put an end to my desire to upgrade my rig. The only upgrades I am currently considering have to do with tweaking my TT and vinyl playback.

 

Thats my story.....  

[Ski Bum]

Hola, and welcome to the forum.  Some really knowledgeable sweep tube ninjas frequent this place.  

 

To your questions, have you considered line level attenuators for your current amp?  As far as PP vs. SE, I find the single ended sound to be a bit more lyrical, pp to be more brassy and bold.  I prefer the slightly sweeter single ended flavor.  Push pull brings the power, but single ended just makes the music reach out and envelop you.  

 

But this process is best approached in a methodical fashion.  We know your speakers.  Next, how big is your room?  What are your desired listening levels?  Speaker orientation and listening distance?

[moray james]

I have had both Forte and Forte ll in the past My son has my Forte ll now. I have had a number of other Klipsch as well I have an Antique Sound Labs Tulip which is a stereo SET 2A3 amplifier. While you can play at a very decent level with only 3.5 watts it does not compare with more. Given good quality a good big amp will always sound better than a good small amplifier. A PPEL34 will provide a solid 35 -40 watts per channel which is lots for all kinds of music. With solid state a solid 50 - 100 watts will do like wise. The only way you will know for yourself is to listen. Ask here at the forum and see if there is anyone close to you who would let you have a listen to their SET amplifier. There are SET amplifiers which can produce 25 and more watts per channel but they will cost. You will need a pre amplifier as well. There are fine examples of each so it will be up to you to decide. Hope this helps, best regards Moray James.

Edited May 19, 2015 by moray james

[tube fanatic]

SETs have a very different sound from other types of tube arrangements including push-pull triodes.  The only way to know if you will like one is, as Moray said above, to find some way to hear how it sounds in your system (where are you located?).  Also, if you choose an integrated amp as opposed to a power amp, you will not need a passive line stage or preamp.  The source will be connected directly to the amp which has its own volume control.  What kind of push-pull amp are you currently using, and what don't you like about its sound?  

There is no way to correlate the position of the volume control of your passive unit with the amount of power your amp is producing.  As far as its impact on sound quality, passive line stages are usually far superior to any powered preamp.   And, the amount of power needed to achieve the louder than desired listening level you mention is probably far lower than you would believe.  It all comes down to the level at which you listen, size of the room, distance from the speakers, etc.  That will determine the amount of power needed for clean reproduction.  

Maynard

  

[rogerh113]

Hello,

 

Thanks for all of the input.  My 'listening room' is about 18 x 30, with the speakers positioned on the short wall about 1' out from the corners (with slight toe in).  Listening position is about 18' from the wall with the speakers.  Both my wife and I prefer moderate listening levels - loud music is of no interest.

 

The amp is a Primaluna Prologue 5 with tube upgrades (bugle boy 12au7s and sylvania 5751 black plate triple getter).  I have spent some time and effort to tune the overall system, and overall it actually sounds very good. 

 -  It seems that the music is still a bit veiled (I experienced a substantial unveiling when I replaced the Classe DR4 preamp with the passive line stage).  If it makes any sense, then I might also call it a bit hot.

 - There is a volume level where the music 'blooms' which is about at 9 o'clock - real close to max volume for comfortable listening for me. I don't know if I am finally getting to the meat of the amp, if the volume pot is finally coming into its own, or maybe something else.

 - It may be unwarranted, but it seems that in attenuating the signal to the degree I am, I am just losing content of the signal, and once lost no amount of amplification will restore it.   This could just be a mental issue with no basis in reality......

 

I am located in Los Altos in the SF Bay Area (Silicon Valley).  I agree that the best approach is to hear a SET to see if the sound of it is compelling.  From what I hear of the descriptions you have provided, it seems like it fits into the direction I would like to go.  I am a bit concerned that every time I resolve one 'sound' issue, I manage to find something else to deal with.  Hopefully at some time that will resolve itself, or maybe as the system improves another 'flaw' is revealed.

 

Regards -- Roger

Edited May 19, 2015 by rogerh113

[Mallette]

Had a couple of bottleheads over a few years back and loved the sound with my Klipschorns.  Plenty of volume and wonderful warm transparency. 

 

However,  I was not running a sub at the time and when the material required significant bass in the C2 and below range the transparency receded and there was a since of "lacking."    Grand piano goes to 32hz, some even lower.  Pipe organs reach C0, as do many artificial music sources such as are commonly used in popular music of the past 40 years. 

 

So, how happy you are with SET will depend on your choice of material and listening levels.   Flea watt is attractive to me again as I do love the sound, and now have a horn loaded sub that handles C2 and down so I can "...have my SET and hear it, too." 

 

Dave

[Thaddeus Smith]

I use an SEP with my Cornwalls and am quite pleased. Plenty of thump from the likes of Jay-Z and Chemical Brothers. Beautiful tones on female vocals and stringed instruments.

[mkane]

  3.5w SET/Cornwalls. plenty of everything. Wife was on vacation  so I drug out the BJC and the sound panels.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2015 by mkane

[rogerh113]

Very nice set up !!  Which SET amp are you using??  Almost afraid to ask what BLC is......

 

Also, Mr. Smith, what wps does your set deliver (and which one, if you are willing to divulge....)

 

Thanks -- Roger

[Marvel]

My rooms haven't been that large, but I have some Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs, approx. 2.5 watts into some La Scalas. I'm not into loud, and it was simply magical. Had to seek the LS, but have another pair I am rehabbing. Just become too busy with other things.

Bruce

Edited May 26, 2015 by Marvel

[artto]

As a few others have mentioned ~  “It Depends”

 

In my experience, although most well-designed SET amps have the proverbial “clear” midrange, the fact of the matter is they’re typically limited at the treble end of the spectrum, and certainly at the low bass end of the spectrum. They are also typically higher in noise content. All of which was tolerable for music reproduction when they were the only thing available because the recordings and speakers of the day didn’t have the frequency range to expose the shortcomings either.

 

That being said, a lot will depend on what kind of music you listen to, how loud you listen to it, and last but not least, the size/volume of the room you are listening in as well as how absorptive it is.

 

As a point of reference, my room is about 4800 cubic feet (20x30x8). Using Klipshorns with a Belle Klipsch center speaker driven by Wright Sound Labs 3.5 Mono/2A3 SET amps, in a well damped acoustically tuned room, playing something like Aerosmith or Tower of Power at anything approaching desirable sound levels for that kind of music, say 95dB or more, is pretty much hopeless. The same applies to massive large scale symphonies, or Harry James’ big band belting it out. The amps simply run out of steam, with the circuitry becoming “saturated” resulting in high levels of distortion until the amps get a moment of rest, not mention the relatively anemic bass as compared to more formidable valve or solid state amps. For some people however, their superb midrange clarity is the priority and may be adequate for the kind of music and conditions they are listening.

 

Just for the record, I have plenty of solid state and valve amps to choose from, Crown, McIntosh, Audio Reseach, Luxman, etc. However IMHO the NAD C390DD I’m currently using as my main amp whips all their a$$es. It has all the best qualities of any of them, with none of the undesirable qualities of any of them, and has what I have come to call “resolving power” that none of them have at all. It’s the best of all worlds. However if you want to experience that at its best you’ll have to use a direct digital source (like a PC with J River Media Center) via HDMI. Even the tube amps actually sound grainy in comparison.

 

I’ve come to the conclusion that Klipsch speakers and tube amps tend to sound good together because they compliment each others virtues while masking their shortcomings. On the other hand some people enjoy the kind of distortion and coloration that tube amps in general provide, especially with Klipsch. As always, YMMV.

Edited May 19, 2015 by artto

[mkane]

Very nice set up !!  Which SET amp are you using??  Almost afraid to ask what BLC is......

 

Also, Mr. Smith, what wps does your set deliver (and which one, if you are willing to divulge....)

 

Thanks -- Roger

Typo, sorry. Blue Jeans Cables (BJC). Bottlehead Stereomour /Quickie pre.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2015 by mkane

[drobo]

I have my La Scalas with a sub in an 18' x 25' x 10' room and have driven them with several amps including SET's.  My Cary 300B signature monoblocks with 8 watt/ch are classic SET Class A amps.  Also I use Sonic Frontiers push/pull 55 watt/ch Power 1 with KT88 tubes.  I had a First Watt solid state SET from Pass for a while just for the fun of it but moved that.  Of course, I have also used some solid state class A-B designed amps.  Actually they all sounded good to my ears although a little different.  The SF sounds more like an extremely quiet SS amp than tube while the Cary 300B's are mid range sweet, very nice.  I didn't think the First Watt was worth the price although it sounded good.  I have never felt I lacked power even though I sometimes listen fairly loudly.

[rogerh113]

Is there a change in the 'characteristics' of SET sound as you move up the power range?  I do realize that this is a general question as there are all the variables of makers, listeners, systems, etc.  The spectrum of power relevant to the Klipsch seems to range from 3.5 WPC to 50 WPC (and maybe up, if it exists).  Is something like the WAVAC at 50 going to have the sweet sounding characteristics as the 3.5, or is something lost in the translation.  I am trying to place myself in the general power spectrum, and would like to know if something is lost on moving up the power spectrum (aside from the thickness of your wallet).  If there is, then crowding the lower end to the min possible might be desirable.  If not, then you just need to make sure you have enough.  Also, do the higher power amps, running at lower driven levels, handle bass and treble better, or is there no difference relative to a lower power amp being driven close to the limit.

 

Thanks again for all of your comments and help - things are starting to become a bit more clear.

 

Regards -- Roger

[Ski Bum]

It's not that simple, unfortunately.  There is a lot of idiosyncratic variation with the amps, due to the iron, circuit, parts employed, tubes, etc.

 

A high output impedance single ended amp will still have a more peaky response at resonance than an amp with lower output impedance, even if they are the same power.  

 

Will the WAVAC 50 watt amp have the same "sweetness"?  Unless it employs phase splitters somewhere, then yes, it probably has those classic single ended traits as the little guys.  Of course they are aimed at the guy with insensitive speakers who wants the single ended thing, and willing to pay a premium for the privilege.  You could compare the cost of the WAVAC to that of just about anything else to keep things in perspective.  Commercial tube amps are typically a horrid value proposition, and WAVAC is the poster boy for such excess.  (I'm hyper frugal, so that could be simply my projection.  But seriously, for a tiny fraction of the cost of a WAVAC, even a used one, Maynard could probably whip together an amp that would sound every bit as pleasing.)

Edited May 21, 2015 by Ski Bum

[rogerh113]

Thanks for all of the input.  In the process of seeing what was out there in terms of SET amps, I ran into a discontinued project that was too good to pass up.  This should be a fun and educational experience for me, building an amp from scratch.  I was trained as an EE back in the day of the discrete transistor, and also have adequate skills in soldering and routing.  As I slowly plod through putting the amp together, I can work on each aspect of the amp and learn about it.  Really looking forward to it.  Beyond that, I can eventually (hopefully) get to listen to a SET amp driving my system.

 

Regards -- Roger

[captmobley]

I use either Welborne Laurel 300B, Welborne Moondog 2A3, Starcheif 45' or Decware amps with my Klipschorns. I have found my Khorns work just fine on 1.5 watts. I listen mostly to jazz and blues.

For my rock and roll setup, I do like a little more power so I use a Wright P/P EL34 amp.

Horns love tubes, especially SET's.

Be careful, once you hear the SET sound, you may never go back to anything else!

[perflenta]

Currently, I am using newly built Cornwalls (sorry, it's been only a few days, can't resist bragging, LOL)  with my GU50 SET (GU50 wired as triode, fixed bias, custom wound iron). The sound is amazing... Always been a big fan of SETs: I like coloration of the sound by single-ended amps, and with Cornwalls the notion of "plenty headroom" becomes evident through clear, snappy bass at low(er) volume, and for the lack of better word, "full bodied" sound at higher volumes...