Subwoofers.... are they the last 5%?

[Coytee]

Would you say that a subwoofer is chasing that last 5% of the sound or would you swap something else (what?) to get good subs playing?

 

 

[tromprof]

I am not sure i understand the question, but...

As I recall you are a Jubilee owner. They have a low frequency cutoff similar to a K-horn (+ - 35 HZ). A good horn sub such as a Cinema F20 will get you down to 20 HZ and integrated correctly you will not be able tell were the Jube leaves off and the sub takes over. There are lots of recordings and movies with sound down there so for me it is a lot more than a 5% gain.

[Fjd]

I am not sure i understand the question, but...

As I recall you are a Jubilee owner. They have a low frequency cutoff similar to a K-horn (+ - 35 HZ). A good horn sub such as a Cinema F20 will get you down to 20 HZ and integrated correctly you will not be able tell were the Jube leaves off and the sub takes over. There are lots of recordings and movies with sound down there so for me it is a lot more than a 5% gain.

 

 

I'm not exactly sure what he is getting at either; however, I remember he was trying to figure out a way to hang two Danley DTS-10's in the ceiling a while ago.  Maybe adequate space is an issue in trying to get that lowest octave?

 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/151290-ok-so-i-do-think-this-is-crazy-but-how-crazy/

Edited May 20, 2015 by Fjd

[Youthman]

If you are asking the importance of a quality subwoofer, I personally believe they are MUCH higher up in percentage of the overall experience than 5%.  I've owned some stinky subs over my journey and they are simply that....stinky.  LOL  A quality sub provides the impact for movies.  They are beneficial even when you have monster size main speakers.   As tromprof mentioned, quality subs will dig much deeper than most main speakers are able to go and there is PLENTY of content around 20hz and still quite a bit well below 20hz that you are missing without a sub.

[tromprof]

I am not sure i understand the question, but...

As I recall you are a Jubilee owner. They have a low frequency cutoff similar to a K-horn (+ - 35 HZ). A good horn sub such as a Cinema F20 will get you down to 20 HZ and integrated correctly you will not be able tell were the Jube leaves off and the sub takes over. There are lots of recordings and movies with sound down there so for me it is a lot more than a 5% gain.

I'm not exactly sure what he is getting at either; however, I remember he was trying to figure out a way to hang two Danley DTS-10's in the ceiling a while ago. Maybe adequate space is an issue in trying to get that lowest octave?

If space is the issue F20s aren't going to help. They are big. Edited May 20, 2015 by tromprof

[CECAA850]

I agree with the above sentiments.  It's much higher than 5%.  It gives a weight to your music that speakers alone can't provide.  You wouldn't want speakers that cut off at 10 to 15k Hz, why would you want a system that stops at 30 or 40Hz?  I wouldn't want to cut a half or full octave off at either end.

[Coytee]

Probably vague question because I'm not sure what I'm trying to ask.  (sometimes I'll ask something more to stir some conversation than something I might specifically want to know)

 

Yes, I've got the Jubilee's.

Yes, I have two Danley's (currently not plugged in)

 

It was a meandering thought of....  (example) would you rather have say....  a pair (or HT) of Heresy's and a killer sub or, would you rather have LaScalas/Khorns/Belle's with ZERO sub.

 

I read someones comment in another thread about him chasing that last 5%.

 

Got to thinking about my world.  Do I think the Danley's would add more than 5% to the total experience?  (yes)

 

So for me, I think the answer would be that subs are not the last 5% of the goal.  I'd say they rate higher.

 

Sorry if vague. 

[Youthman]

It was a meandering thought of.... (example) would you rather have say.... a pair (or HT) of Heresy's and a killer sub or, would you rather have LaScalas/Khorns/Belle's with ZERO sub.

If I could only have either / or, I would take LaScalas/Khorns/Belle's with NO sub over Heresy's with a sub.

[derrickdj1]

The way I look at things is that subs will handle the bottom end for music and movies better than almost any mains.  If I had to choose between another or different speaker, I would have to look at what each is bringing to the table and can't give a blanket answer on one being better than the other.  One thing I do know for certain, a couple of subs will reduce the variance of bass in the room, equate to better power management, better midrange SQ with speakers set to small.  You kinda need need everything working together.

 

It may sound like I am down on big speakers and and their benefit to a system at times and that is not my intention.  Subs can do something for the FR in the room that is hard to duplicate with mains and are just another part of a complete system.  I place a lot of emphasis on this quote by Dr. Geddes from one of his presentations:

 

No longer is one at the mercy of the room in achieving ideal audio reproduction down into the modal region of the room
With easy (and free) measurements, some software and readily available DSP, results unobtainable before can be achieved at virtually all listening locations in the room
When one knows that they will be using subs in all cases, then it makes no sense to try and extend the response of the mains

 

Gedddes last sentence really makes a lot of sense and is why I think trying to XO the mains as low as possible is an out of date philosophy.

Edited May 20, 2015 by derrickdj1

[Youthman]

But you didn't answer the question Derrick....would you rather have the larger Klipsch speakers with no sub or Heresy's with a sub?

[CECAA850]

But you didn't answer the question Derrick....would you rather have the larger Klipsch speakers with no sub or Heresy's with a sub?

 

 

For music (except Daves organ music) I'd do the big boys.  For HT, Heresy's and a sub.

[Paducah Home Theater]

ZERO sub.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Also depends on what kind of music. For rap or anything electronic, subs are non-negotiable in my opinion.

[derrickdj1]

But you didn't answer the question Derrick....would you rather have the larger Klipsch speakers with no sub or Heresy's with a sub?

 

I am getting roasted, lol.  Thanks Michael.  Big speakers provide a better soundstage, 3 way may provide a better midrange presentation.  My RF 7's are not going up for sale anytime soon, lol.  I can't imagine life without subs, sob, sob.

[CECAA850]

sometimes I'll ask something more to stir some conversation than something I might specifically want to know

 

Another rabble-rouser ehhhhhh????  I've got my eye on you!!

[sean5340]

La Scala's with a sub. Hard to beat IMO.

[garyrc]

It was a meandering thought of.... (example) would you rather have say.... a pair (or HT) of Heresy's and a killer sub or, would you rather have LaScalas/Khorns/Belle's with ZERO sub.

 

For music, I'd rather have Khorns and zero subs.

 

But, for modern movies a sub is necessary,

 

I saved up and got Khorns, modified Belle center, Heresy II surrounds, and RSW 15 sub.  Someday, I'll junk the RSW 15, which isn't as distortion free as the Khorns, and get a good HORN sub, but I don't know where I'll put it.

[Youthman]

La Scala's with a sub. Hard to beat IMO.

I agree but that wasn't an option. 

[garyrc]

"When one knows that they will be using subs in all cases, then it makes no sense to try and extend the response of the mains."

 

Gedddes last sentence really makes a lot of sense and is why I think trying to XO the mains as low as possible is an out of date philosophy.

 

I, for one, don't have my big speakers because of their frequency range.  I have Khorns because down to the bottom of their range, they are less distorted (probably because of low FM distortion) than any subwoofer I've had in the house.  My RSW15 sub is very powerful sounding, but a bit burpy, slow, loose, and imprecise sounding, compared to the Khorns.  Thus, I'll eventually get a horn loaded sub.  With the Khorns set to "Small" I've tried crossovers at 40 Hz, 60 Hz, and 80 Hz, as well as Khorns "Large" with  "LPF + Main" with each of those crossover points.  Each has something going for it, and that variable interacts with the subwoofer volume level variable.  So far, I've had the LPF for LFE set for 120, as recommended by the people in La La Land.

 

In audio, unlike in certain other areas, once you're horny, you stay horny forever. 

 

Coytee, do you have a horn sub?  It might sound great with your Jubs!

Edited May 20, 2015 by garyrc

[ClaudeJ1]

I am not sure i understand the question, but...

As I recall you are a Jubilee owner. They have a low frequency cutoff similar to a K-horn (+ - 35 HZ). A good horn sub such as a Cinema F20 will get you down to 20 HZ and integrated correctly you will not be able tell were the Jube leaves off and the sub takes over. There are lots of recordings and movies with sound down there so for me it is a lot more than a 5% gain.

You are correct, except for the cutoff part. Jubes, like the Khorn, start rolling at 60 Hz. and are corner/room dependent below that. I have curves to prove it. This is why I prefer the Qpie since they are smoother down to 50 hz. BUT all speakers need subs. I think the 5% number is low since you are compromising the last octave to octave and a half down there and there is a ton of stuff down there you don't know about until you have a sub to show you how to hear and feel it.