Fjd Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 +++ Not that it matters Department: I was around when the Beatles first started. They were the rock and roll band, not because of any poll, but because I remember. And I do want to discuss the Beach Boys, in particular Pet Sounds. Maybe later. Regarding the Beach Boys album "Pet Sounds" I actually do believe there is some merit to that album as having groundbreaking aspects, but at this juncture in my thought process I'm not sure it would be on my all-time top ten. I'm open to reading your arguments/views on Pet Sounds. You may have missed it regarding the Beatles; however, I did give some credit to Rubber Soul as being somewhat groundbreaking. Regardless of how I feel about Rubber Soul, I'll quote the master Thebes on why the Beatles were first and foremost a Pop band: Take it away Thebes...... Curmudgeon? Why you whippersnapper. I’m way too old to be labeled with such a youthful sobriquet. “Your Decrepitude” has a more august ring to it.And another thing, how can you possibly call the world’s #1 pop band a rock-and-roll band? I’d Roll Over Beethoven but they stole that from somebody else. Better rock bands? Just about everybody. Start with The Stones, then go from there. Hell, Bob Dylan and Paul Simon, a couple of folkies, have written far better, and mostly original material, than the mob-haired pretenders could even dream about. Want more proof. Here’s the top 3 Beatles song by sales: 1. She Loves You 2. I Want to Hold Your Hand 3. Can't Buy Me Love Grumpy Thebes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 +++ Not that it matters Department: I was around when the Beatles first started. They were the rock and roll band, not because of any poll, but because I remember. And I do want to discuss the Beach Boys, in particular Pet Sounds. Maybe later. Regarding the Beach Boys album "Pet Sounds" I actually do believe there is some merit to that album as having groundbreaking aspects, but at this juncture in my thought process I'm not sure it would be on my all-time top ten. I'm open to reading your arguments/views on Pet Sounds. You may have missed it regarding the Beatles; however, I did give some credit to Rubber Soul as being somewhat groundbreaking. Regardless of how I feel about Rubber Soul, I'll quote the master Thebes on why the Beatles were first and foremost a Pop band: Take it away Thebes...... Curmudgeon? Why you whippersnapper. I’m way too old to be labeled with such a youthful sobriquet. “Your Decrepitude” has a more august ring to it.And another thing, how can you possibly call the world’s #1 pop band a rock-and-roll band? I’d Roll Over Beethoven but they stole that from somebody else. Better rock bands? Just about everybody. Start with The Stones, then go from there. Hell, Bob Dylan and Paul Simon, a couple of folkies, have written far better, and mostly original material, than the mob-haired pretenders could even dream about. Want more proof. Here’s the top 3 Beatles song by sales: 1. She Loves You 2. I Want to Hold Your Hand 3. Can't Buy Me Love Grumpy Thebes Yeah, but in the years those came out, what competed with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yeah, but in the years those came out, what competed with them? Stones songs? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Well there you have it. It's on an internet poll so it must be true; however, you know what they say about polls………. No, it's on 50 internet polls. Look, I am in the minority on many things, won't ya let me be in on a majority opinion just this once? If I let you off that easy you know that dwilawyer would be the next hurdle. Jeff Matthews said it best in that "we are starting to dig too deep into obscurity" and I guess that what happens when you have an attorney on one side of you and someone that has done time as a forensic white collar fraud investigator on the other side. Well, not so fast. I wouldn't call the Beatles or the Beach Boys "obscure." At 47, I am the youngest of 5 children. My older siblings went through the Beatles transition. I would say the Beatles most definitely have to make that list. I personally like Abbey Road the best, but Sgt Pepper's was the big one. Nobody mentioned Who's Next. Another huge one. +++ Not that it matters Department: I was around when the Beatles first started. They were the rock and roll band, not because of any poll, but because I remember. And I do want to discuss the Beach Boys, in particular Pet Sounds. Maybe later. Regarding the Beach Boys album "Pet Sounds" I actually do believe there is some merit to that album as having groundbreaking aspects, but at this juncture in my thought process I'm not sure it would be on my all-time top ten. I'm open to reading your arguments/views on Pet Sounds. You may have missed it regarding the Beatles; however, I did give some credit to Rubber Soul as being somewhat groundbreaking. Regardless of how I feel about Rubber Soul, I'll quote the master Thebes on why the Beatles were first and foremost a Pop band: Take it away Thebes...... Curmudgeon? Why you whippersnapper. I’m way too old to be labeled with such a youthful sobriquet. “Your Decrepitude” has a more august ring to it.And another thing, how can you possibly call the world’s #1 pop band a rock-and-roll band? I’d Roll Over Beethoven but they stole that from somebody else. Better rock bands? Just about everybody. Start with The Stones, then go from there. Hell, Bob Dylan and Paul Simon, a couple of folkies, have written far better, and mostly original material, than the mob-haired pretenders could even dream about. Want more proof. Here’s the top 3 Beatles song by sales: 1. She Loves You 2. I Want to Hold Your Hand 3. Can't Buy Me Love Grumpy Thebes Yeah, but in the years those came out, what competed with them? Agreed, and I'm not arguing and agree that there sure is a lot of great music and great musicians over the years; however, what aspects do you consider about your specific album picks that make them groundbreaking and influential? I find this interesting and an opportunity to gain new insight; however, we are only getting some commentary from a few but mostly just popularity contest naming. As noted earlier, Dwilawyer has provided insight into why he believes certain album picks are groundbreaking and influential and has highlighted several very relevant points I had not considered in some of my musings and I've altered my list. There again, overall, I'm not sure that critical acclaim by questionable beat writers and internet polls capturing bands that are popular with a large fan base alone would get them on my list of groundbreaking and influential albums. Essentially, I have been focusing more on trying to identify innovative albums that potentially changed the "face" of music and had a great influence on artists that followed similar to the video in the OP link describes and ruling out artists with singles and no focus on albums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Regarding the Beach Boys album "Pet Sounds" I actually do believe there is some merit to that album as having groundbreaking aspects, but at this juncture in my thought process I'm not sure it would be on my all-time top ten. I'm open to reading your arguments/views on Pet Sounds. What I like about this discussion is it doesn't focus on a single song or one's favorable group, it focuses on an album that has been influential or ground breaking. And I remember those times, and those groups. In those days, most successful bands made singles made to play for 2 minutes on AM radio. That drove the sales of 99 cent 45 rpm records, and then the single would drive the sales of the albums, which contained one hit song and 9 fillers. Bands would tour and to make an album everyone would meet up in the studio with their instruments and everybody would play the song. If you screwed up, they redid the entire take to get the studio recording. In the early years, the Beatles played what I would call bubble gum music, the Beach Boys played "beach music." Both groups were stereotyped in their genres, and of course, both bands got bored of playing the same-old same-old commercially oriented songs. Brian Wilson, the songwriter for the Beach Boys who also sang the falsetto parts, hated to tour. He was also competitive with the Beatles and said he wanted to "beat" the Beatles musically. In the early 60's Brian stopped touring while the band continued to tour. Brian who wanted to break out of the beach rock genre wanted to make a groundbreaking album. He went back to the studio where he could concentrate on producing and songwriting. The rest of the Beach Boys wanted more commercially successful songs. Brian wanted to make music his way, keeping the characteristic sound but breaking the mold on using 3 guitars, one lead, one rhythm and one bass, and add drums. That was the formula for rock bands in the 60's. Wilson conceived the idea of the studio band, where he laid down tracks where nobody knew what the song actually would sound like. He was criticized for that at the time for being a "studio" band. What Wilson came up with in 1966 was Pet Sounds. It used instruments which were NEVER used for rock and roll before, and it created a new sound, some even called it a marching band sound. Pet Sounds used heavy bass guitar and string bass, along with the 12-string guitar. There were 2 accordion players in some songs, there was saxophone. Here's a studio recording of some vocals on Pet Sounds: In 1966, Brian recorded his instrumental tracks on four-track tape. The instrumentation was spread out across the tracks so that Brian would have at least some degree of control over the mix when he created a final, mono instrumental track. The goal was never to facilitate the creation of a stereo track. Once Brian had completed recording of the instrumental track, he would mix the tracks down to mono on a single track of another tape -- either a four-track tape (at Western Studios), leaving three tracks open for vocals, or an eight-track tape (at Columbia Studios), allowing him the luxury of up to seven tracks for vocals. When vocal sessions were complete, the end result for any given song would be (1) a four-track tape that contained the instrumental track, and (2) either a four-track or an eight-track tape that contained the instrumental track mixed to mono on one track, with the vocals spread over the remaining three or seven tracks. Therefore, the only way to create a true stereo mix, with a stereo instrumental track and stereo vocals, was to sync the vocal overdubs to the original instrumental master tracks. In 1996, engineer Mark Linett did just that for entire Pet Sounds album. "The original instrumental multi-track was transferred onto a digital multi-track," he explained, "and then, after carefully matching the tape speeds of the track and vocal tapes, the vocals were manually synchronized to the track using the [mono instrumental] track on the vocal tape as a guide. The result was a single multi-track master tape of each song with all the discrete tracks that Brian recorded in 1966 in sync." Once the digital multi-tracks were prepared, Pet Sounds could be mixed into stereo. http://www.beachboysfanclub.com/ps-tracks.html It would be groundbreaking for Pet Sounds based on HOW it influenced virtually all recordings to come after just based on the production alone. But Pet Sounds also has a profound effect on the Beatles, who loved Pet Sounds as they grew out of their own bubble gum music and grew musically. Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band was a direct result of the Beatles competing with the Beach Boys Pet sounds. And Pet Sounds was a direct result of Brian Wilson's love for the Beatles Rubber Soul album. That is why I would place Pet Sounds AS AN INFLUENTIAL ROCK ALBUM, as #1 in this list. You can put Sgt Peppers on the list as well, but it followed Pet Sounds and drew inspiration from it. Edited May 21, 2015 by wvu80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Mustang Guy, why is Lynyrd Skynyrd - Second Helping most important, or influential? +++ I'm thinking something like Framptom Comes alive which was considered a breakthrough live album in its time. I also wonder about Beatles Meet the Beatles. At the time it seemed like every album had one hit song and 9 fillers, but with this album there were a bunch of hit singles. I have others. I'm sure you do too. It was Sweet Home Alabama which was, in my opinion, the true birth of the Southern Rock. SHA was on that album. Alman Brothers Live at the Fillmore East, please. AND the very first Platinum Album ever for a rock group Wheels of Fire by Cream. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 what qualifies as Important? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Excellent and a very nice job of reasoning and I would agree it should be in most anyone's top ten groundbreaking and influential album list. Actually, while I'm not sure it is my number one, I had it for my list but primarily wanted to see someone dig a little deeper and support a position other than dwilawyer and myself and you executed a very convincing argument. I've felt that Pet Sounds was the point where Brian Wilson pushed himself away from the teenage dance pop music and that album became a significant influence on shaping a fairly significant portion of rock & roll. Well done. Regarding the Beach Boys album "Pet Sounds" I actually do believe there is some merit to that album as having groundbreaking aspects, but at this juncture in my thought process I'm not sure it would be on my all-time top ten. I'm open to reading your arguments/views on Pet Sounds. What I like about this discussion is it doesn't focus on a single song or one's favorable group, it focuses on an album that has been influential or ground breaking. And I remember those times, and those groups. In those days, most successful bands made singles made to play for 2 minutes on AM radio. That drove the sales of 99 cent 45 rpm records, and then the single would drive the sales of the albums, which contained one hit song and 9 fillers. Bands would tour and to make an album everyone would meet up in the studio with their instruments and everybody would play the song. If you screwed up, they redid the entire take to get the studio recording. In the early years, the Beatles played what I would call bubble gum music, the Beach Boys played "beach music." Both groups were stereotyped in their genres, and of course, both bands got bored of playing the same-old same-old commercially oriented songs. Brian Wilson, the songwriter for the Beach Boys who also sang the falsetto parts, hated to tour. He was also competitive with the Beatles and said he wanted to "beat" the Beatles musically. In the early 60's Brian stopped touring while the band continued to tour. Brian who wanted to break out of the beach rock genre wanted to make a groundbreaking album. He went back to the studio where he could concentrate on producing and songwriting. The rest of the Beach Boys wanted more commercially successful songs. Brian wanted to make music his way, keeping the characteristic sound but breaking the mold on using 3 guitars, one lead, one rhythm and one bass, and add drums. That was the formula for rock bands in the 60's. Wilson conceived the idea of the studio band, where he laid down tracks where nobody knew what the song actually would sound like. He was criticized for that at the time for being a "studio" band. What Wilson came up with in 1966 was Pet Sounds. It used instruments which were NEVER used for rock and roll before, and it created a new sound, some even called it a marching band sound. Pet Sounds used heavy bass guitar and string bass, along with the 12-string guitar. There were 2 accordion players in some songs, there was saxophone. Here's a studio recording of some vocals on Pet Sounds: In 1966, Brian recorded his instrumental tracks on four-track tape. The instrumentation was spread out across the tracks so that Brian would have at least some degree of control over the mix when he created a final, mono instrumental track. The goal was never to facilitate the creation of a stereo track. Once Brian had completed recording of the instrumental track, he would mix the tracks down to mono on a single track of another tape -- either a four-track tape (at Western Studios), leaving three tracks open for vocals, or an eight-track tape (at Columbia Studios), allowing him the luxury of up to seven tracks for vocals. When vocal sessions were complete, the end result for any given song would be (1) a four-track tape that contained the instrumental track, and (2) either a four-track or an eight-track tape that contained the instrumental track mixed to mono on one track, with the vocals spread over the remaining three or seven tracks. Therefore, the only way to create a true stereo mix, with a stereo instrumental track and stereo vocals, was to sync the vocal overdubs to the original instrumental master tracks. In 1996, engineer Mark Linett did just that for entire Pet Sounds album. "The original instrumental multi-track was transferred onto a digital multi-track," he explained, "and then, after carefully matching the tape speeds of the track and vocal tapes, the vocals were manually synchronized to the track using the [mono instrumental] track on the vocal tape as a guide. The result was a single multi-track master tape of each song with all the discrete tracks that Brian recorded in 1966 in sync." Once the digital multi-tracks were prepared, Pet Sounds could be mixed into stereo. http://www.beachboysfanclub.com/ps-tracks.html It would be groundbreaking for Pet Sounds based on HOW it influenced virtually all recordings to come after just based on the production alone. But Pet Sounds also has a profound effect on the Beatles, who loved Pet Sounds as they grew out of their own bubble gum music and grew musically. Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band was a direct result of the Beatles competing with the Beach Boys Pet sounds. And Pet Sounds was a direct result of Brian Wilson's love for the Beatles Rubber Soul album. That is why I would place Pet Sounds AS AN INFLUENTIAL ROCK ALBUM, as #1 in this list. You can put Sgt Peppers on the list as well, but it followed Pet Sounds and drew inspiration from it. Edited May 21, 2015 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) what qualifies as Important? In general we are trying to apply criteria to identify innovative albums that potentially changed the "face" of rock & roll music and had a great influence on artists that followed similar to the video in the OP link describes and ruling out artists with singles and no focus on albums. Overall, I'm not sure that general platitudes of critical acclaim by questionable beat writers and internet polls capturing bands that are popular with a large fan base alone would get them on my list of groundbreaking and influential albums. Edited May 21, 2015 by Fjd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted May 21, 2015 Moderators Share Posted May 21, 2015 Pet Sounds, other than maybe Buddy Holly, is probably the single , influential of all of them in my opinion. It really is Brian Wilson, but the Beach Boys get to come along for the ride. I can here Pet Sounds tracks in many, many songs. harmonies, keys, major chords, minor chords. Most of all, Wilson transformed the studio and recording process to a completely different level. He took the pioneering work of Les Paul and with his genius turned it into what would be the standard for the modern multitrack recording process. It is not the Beach Boys that were influential, it was Pet Sounds, the work of Wilson, that is what was influential and griund breaking. People have expressed why it was so ground breaking far better than I can, some of which has been posted, but I like this article. http://mentalfloss.com/article/59457/15-facts-about-pet-sounds On Elvis, as a performer, he is probably the most influential artist of all time. I am not sure an lp captures it. Early Beatles are certainly Rock for that period of time and not Pop. Pop at that time was Pat Boone. They went into pop later on, because Rock took over Pop. To this day, Rock is the biggest selling genre of music soldnin the US. Which makesnine wonder why they stip call Pop, Popular. Rock is the most popular music purchased. Here is the link on Pet Sounds. I have really enjoyed reading the comments ALL have posted here. I have reevaluated several lps that have been mentioned in this thread. I hope WVU continues this kind of discussion with new threads every week or so, Top 10 Prog Rock Albums, Top Live Rock Lps, Top 10 Debut Rock Lps, Top Ten (whatever Anyine is interested in talking about). Travis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Overall, I'm not sure that general platitudes of critical acclaim by questionable beat writers and internet polls capturing bands that are popular with a large fan base alone would get them on my list of groundbreaking and influential albums. Point well taken. My opinion on a very subjective subject is certainly not definitive. I have not even heard half the albums on that list, so I'm not qualified to make a completely informed opinion on them. That's where you guys come in. I trust you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted May 21, 2015 Moderators Share Posted May 21, 2015 what qualifies as Important? Whatever YOU decide is important qualifies. People have expressed WHY things are important to them in this thread and it has been very informative and enlightening. I, like others, have reconsidered many of the lps people have discussed as being "important." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted May 21, 2015 Moderators Share Posted May 21, 2015 what qualifies as Important? In general we are trying to apply criteria to identify innovative albums that potentially changed the "face" of rock & roll music and had a great influence on artists that followed similar to the video in the OP link describes and ruling out artists with singles and no focus on albums. Overall, I'm not sure that general platitudes of critical acclaim by questionable beat writers and internet polls capturing bands that are popular with a large fan base alone would get them on my list of groundbreaking and influential albums. I would hope not, especially coming from you. I always look to you for the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxr dad Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Cool discussion. I think Kiss should have a mention here. They sure started a fuss back in the day and I think Alice Cooper and Kiss were pioneers with the stage shows. One could argue that Black Sabbath is the Godfather of metal. Van Halen had a big album as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted May 21, 2015 Moderators Share Posted May 21, 2015 Another possible topic for WVU to post, Top 10 LP's that Influenced You Personally? First LP (s) you bought. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 First LP (s) you bought. Steve Miller Band, Book of Dreams. Back to the top 10 discussion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RT FAN Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I'll throw a few into the ring: As mentioned previously The Byrds were hugely influential in the founding of the West Coast sound, (different than the Jazz West Coast sound), Their first LP Mr. Tambourine Man, with it's versions of Dylan classics & tight harmonies, still sounds fresh today unlike most of their contemporaries output which hasn't aged quite as gracefully. Many bands acknowledge The Byrds influence, from the Beatles, "If I Needed Someone", to Tom Petty's cover of "I'll Feel A Whole Lot Better" on Full Moon Fever. To say nothing of the Eagles, Poco, etc. Black Sabbath: Paranoid. Is there a heavier album out there? The be all & end all of heavy metal music. The fountainhead of all that came out of the genre of Heavy Metal. Led Zep was more of a blues influenced rock band & Deep Purple's "Machine Head" also mentioned earlier, seems polished by comparison. Thrash, Black metal, Death Metal, all owe the Masters of Reality. King Crimson: Red. Robert Fripp, Bill Bruford & John Wetton crushed everything in their path with this album. Cited by many of the Grunge bands as their most influential record. I won't hold it against Crimson that this album is partly responsible for the emergence of "Grunge", but every time you see one of those guys interviewed they always say they played Red to death. Fairport Convention: Liege & Lief. This is the album that invented British Folk Rock. With Sandy Denny & Dave Swarbrick bringing their extensive folk backgrounds to merge with guitar master Richard Thompson's playing, this is the seminal record that created the genre. As Ashley Hutchings the bass player said, it was a door that through which a lot of music, both good and some bad rushed through. Steeleye Span, Albion Band, Fotheringay, were direct offshoots of Fairport's & bands like Traffic, recording John Barleycorn & Led Zeppelin inviting Sandy Denny to sing on their 4th record, is testament to how important this record was in Britain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Overall, I'm not sure that general platitudes of critical acclaim by questionable beat writers and internet polls capturing bands that are popular with a large fan base alone would get them on my list of groundbreaking and influential albums. Point well taken. My opinion on a very subjective subject is certainly not definitive. I have not even heard half the albums on that list, so I'm not qualified to make a completely informed opinion on them. That's where you guys come in. I trust you. Please don't read too much into that quote. I'm certainly no expert and just trying to stimulate some thought (maybe a little "Jeff Matthews" in me on some of these topics but trying to offer a little more insight to an opposing thought?) to allow us all to benefit from each others perspective and insight rather than quote the polls. I believe that the Beatles are just too easy to pick and I wanted to explore how others see the various albums. As to listening, I've got the LP for everything on the original list and everything I've suggested but the Radiohead "OK Computer" album; however, I cannot assert that everything is a favorite of mine or will be a favorite for anyone else. I actually love all of the old Rolling Stones and the Doors. Essentially, just highlighting a few of those 'landmark' type LPs that made me stop and think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 what qualifies as Important? In general we are trying to apply criteria to identify innovative albums that potentially changed the "face" of rock & roll music and had a great influence on artists that followed similar to the video in the OP link describes and ruling out artists with singles and no focus on albums. Overall, I'm not sure that general platitudes of critical acclaim by questionable beat writers and internet polls capturing bands that are popular with a large fan base alone would get them on my list of groundbreaking and influential albums. I would hope not, especially coming from you. I always look to you for the truth. Thanks, I think? Seriously, I've always enjoyed your writing in how you examine all sides of an issue. In my current role, while I cannot go into much detail, I have to recognize my own bias (which is not always easy to do) and try to mitigate it and "test" my conclusions and often times those conclusions of our teams through challenging them from very different perspectives to see how "scalable" they are and how well they hold up to scrutiny as there always seems to be some type of attack on integrity and the amount of due diligence that went into the decision making process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Wow, I knew somehow the "10" would navigate to "10,000". JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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