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wvu80

CF-4 Horn, need tech help

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EDIT:  The Ebay auction is ended and somebody else got the horns, so this discussion is now somewhat moot unless another CF-2 horn becomes available soon, which I doubt.  Still, if anyone has any opinions for a horn for my center build, please let me know your thoughts.

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I am looking for a horn for a center speaker DIY build.  This will match my CF-4.

 

Is the horn on the CF-2 the same?  It is spec'd at 60x90, the same as the CF-4, but I can't tell from the pictures if it is the same.  The CF-2 uses the K-64-KN CD, the CF-4 uses the K-63-KN.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KLIPSCH-TRACTRIX-HORN-CF-2-HORN-ONLY-NO-DIAPHRAGM-/391118125584?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b1074fa10

 

http://www.klipsch.com/cf-2/details

 

http://www.klipsch.com/cf-4/details

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Is there an alternative that might work as well or better?  The compression driver will be the EV DH1506.  All I have is an idea for a center, not a plan.

 

If I didn't get a Klipsch horn, I would probably go with a Denovo 12" SEOS waveguide.  I have these in two DIY kits and the sound is fantastic (no horn-y sound, no distortion) and off-axis listening response is likewise excellent.

http://www.parts-express.com/denovo-audio-seos-12-waveguide-2-3-bolt-matte-with-1-3-8-18-tpi-adapter--300-7070

 

Here is the SEOS beside the stock CF-4 KN-63.

post-58280-0-36260000-1433734653_thumb.j

post-58280-0-96260000-1433734551_thumb.j

post-58280-0-56220000-1433734577_thumb.j

Edited by wvu80

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FYI - The device you're calling a horn lens, is not a lens. It's plainly called, a horn, or, waveguide. An acoustical lens is an entirely different device, as it alters the pressure wave by literally bending it by either converging, or diverging it depending on the geometry of the lens elements in the same manner light passes through an optical lens. Whereas a horn, or waveguide has only a single pattern of dispersion. I don't know who originated the misnomer of calling a horn a lens, but I have seen that term used in after market audio component catalogs all too often.

 

However, if it were a choice between the small horn or larger horn in your photograph, I recommend using the larger horn.

Edited by Horn Fanatic

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FYI - The device you're calling a horn lens, is not a lens. It's plainly called, a horn, or, waveguide.

You are right about my misuse of the term "horn lens."  I edited my first post and got rid of the word "lens" altogether.

 

My question would be, what does one call a horn/CD combo?  I wanted to refer to just the horn part, not the horn/CD combo but I wasn't sure what to call it, and I have seen others use the "lens" term.  In trying to be more clear, I think I was less clear.

 

A horn is not a waveguide, but isn't a waveguide is a horn?  I don't think those two terms are interchangeable.

(snip)

 

However, if it were a choice between the small horn or larger horn in your photograph, I recommend using the larger horn.

 

You recommend using the larger horn, which is the Klipsch.  What is your thinking on that? 

 

I am wanting to use it in a center channel, so my thinking is that smaller is better in terms of placement in a living room.  OTOH if I use the Klipsch it would be EXACTLY the same horn/CD as the CF-4 R/L, so I can see it both ways.  I think my preference would be for the Klipsch, but if I use the SEOS I could lower the height if the horn was placed horizontally, the width is about the same for both.

 

The SEOS waveguide is not a small horn (I know, there I go again :rolleyes: ) .  It may look small next to the 60x90 but they are really very close in size to each other.

+++

 

As an experiment I used the SEOS 12 with a DNA 360 CD and simply plugged it into the Klipsch CF-4 XO.  I could NOT hear a difference in sound between the stocker and the SEOS, not even SPL.  I was expecting some difference, either good bad or different, but there really was none.

 

post-58280-0-69900000-1433771600_thumb.j

 

post-58280-0-74340000-1433771660_thumb.j

 

I'm not sure why, but even with the speaker laying on its side (not ideal) and the horn overlapping the woofers (not ideal) and with that great big opening in the middle (FAR from ideal) the sound is phenomenal and the blend is incredible. 

 

Here is the full comparison on AVSforum.com

Edited by wvu80
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I noticed some time ago folks began calling horns, waveguides, about the same time folks began to call a horn, a lens. As I was formally employed at a company that manufactured microwave antennas, the term waveguide was the technical description for what is basically a rectangle tube with an internal crossection that looks like an 'H', except with a small gap between the horizontal line. The semi-rigid cable used between microwave components and antennas could be considered waveguides as well, as the electro-magnetic energy is guided to it's destinations. In that case, the E-M energy is transmitted through the center conductor, along with what ever electrical power is required to operate microwave components.

 

Calling a horn a waveguide makes a bit of sense, but I think whom ever it was that began calling a horn a waveguide was attempting to describe it's function. It actually does 'guide' the pressure wave, but I'd rather call a horn, a horn, and be done with it.

 

I'm unclear by what you call a, "horn/CD combo". If you mean Constant Directivity, then a "CD" as you call it, is a horn.

 

As for using the larger horn, it was discovered after the advent of sound systems that were designed for talking movies that large horns image better, although the acousticians back then didn't call it imaging, they called it separation. Yes, stereo sound existed even back then. All that would happen if you leave the horn mounted in the enclosure as it was originally intended, rather than blocking the woofers, is that you will experience less dispersion on the horizontal plain, and more on the vertical plain. If you use, for example, a horn throat for an ALTEC Mantaray, or JBL Bi-Radial horn, in essence you would have a horn slot that would behave in the same manner as the JBL 2405 tweeter. A vertical slot by it's very nature provides better dispersion on the horizontal plane than the vertical. It's why column speakers work so well. It's kind of an acoustical phenomena.

 

All I can suggest, is that you try the combinations you're interested in. If one works better than the other for you, then go with what works best. It's easy to armchair quarterback, but it's your ears that will make the final decision.

Edited by Horn Fanatic

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I'm unclear by what you call a, "horn/CD combo". If you mean Constant Directivity, then a "CD" as you call it, is a horn.

 

A CD is a common term for Compression Driver.  Since all Klipsch uses is compression drivers that ends up being a common abbreviation around here.  My question was "what do you get if you screw a CD into a horn?"

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Other:  The people at DIY Soundgroup very particular about calling it a waveguide and not a horn, even though they both use a CD. 

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/
 

SEOS™ - Super Elliptical Oblate Spheroid

The SEOS™ Project was a huge online effort spanning over 4 years on the AVS Forum.  The ultimate goal was to create a superior waveguide that would significantly improve the audio performance of high sensitivity speakers. The super ellipse shape was chosen to eliminate the on-axis response dip so common in older horns and waveguides on the market. A large round over was applied to the mouth area to eliminate diffraction which allows sound to reach the listener in it's full purity. And because the SEOS is wider than it is tall, the woofer can be placed closer to the center of the waveguide which minimizes vertical nulls.  

 

The result is the class leading SEOS providing many benefits over other waveguides:

 
- Superior directivity control

- Linear horizontal coverage for great off axis response

 - Reduced vertical coverage for less ceiling and floor bounce

- Extremely wide listening area giving you a huge sweet spot

- Improved imaging and clarity for both music and home theater use

- Reduced High Order Modes to do away with the dreaded 'horn honk'

 

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I have been designing and building speaker enclosures for over 40 years for various purposes, and I have never heard anyone refer to a compression driver as a CD. The letters CD are also used as an abriviation for Compact Disk. Due to my sound reinforcement background, when I hear someone say CD I automatically think, Constant Directivity. I deal with professionals, I don't follow DIY groups, nor do I give much attention to their pet names for transducers and such. The bottom line is, a horn by any other name, is a horn. By definition, all horns are waveguides. Some do a better job than others, but at the end of the day they are just all horns, no matter how particular some people may be. If some manufacturers wish to elevate themselves by calling their horns, waveguides, more power to them.

 

"what do you get if you screw a CD into a horn?"

 

Uh, a compression driver / horn assembly?

 

- Superior directivity control     <<< "Constant Directivity"

- Linear horizontal coverage for great off axis response

- Reduced vertical coverage for less ceiling and floor bounce     <<< Not a very technical description. Ceiling and floor bounce could have been referred to as room reflections in the vertical plain.

- Extremely wide listening area giving you a huge sweet spot    <<< An "extremely wide listening area" can promote room reflections in the horizontal plain.

- Improved imaging and clarity for both music and home theater use

- Reduced High Order Modes to do away with the dreaded 'horn honk'     <<< I haven't heard "honk" since the middle 70's, when ALTEC A7's were the popular choice for band P.A. systems.

 

With a judicious choice of a properly designed crossover and crossover frequency, and exponential horn will perform every task on that list, admirably.

Edited by Horn Fanatic

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I have been designing and building speaker enclosures for over 40 years for various purposes, and I have never heard anyone refer to a compression driver as a CD.

 

You are a new poster to Klipsch, but obviously not a rookie!  It's good to have a man with your background and experience posting here.  :emotion-21:

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As far as using the term "CD" I agree, that is commonly translated to compact disc by the general public.  I would say CD and XO are two of the most common abbreviations I see used on some of the horn-related forums I visit, Klipsch and AVSforum.com in the DIY Subs and Speakers section. 

 

It sounds like you haven't heard of the SEOS waveguide before.  It was a DIY project started in 2010 by amateur audio enthusiasts and now has grown into a very large, but not-for-profit "business" for lack of a better word run by a guy named Erich.  It has a large grass roots fan base because it is all DIY run and supported.  Because of your background you might understand the technical workings of the waveguide and the SEOS waveguide in particular better than I do. 

 

If you have the patience, there is a 12,000 post on the SEOS project on AVSforum.com which goes into the technical details of design and has more charts and graphs then you can shake a stick at.  The main thread is "Hey guys we need some rallying here" and is  commonly referred to as the "Hey guys" thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1291022-hey-guys-we-need-little-rallying-here.html

 

Its not the largest thread over there, but it's big and the 45,000 post Klipsch Owner Thread is big as well.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/680426-klipsch-owner-thread.html

Edited by wvu80

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The K703 Tractrix horn may be crossed at 700hz. It was used in the KLF20/30 with a phenolic midrange driver and a tweeter. It was also used with a 2" VC wide range aluminum diaphragm compression driver, without a tweeter, in the now defunct Epic series. Ordered as a repair part from the service department for "your freight damaged KLF20/30," the Klipsch part number is 130024 and the MSRP is $30. If a bunch of you try this, get your sh*t together first. Don't all order the same thing on the same day. And don't all ask for a 130024. Remember that this horn was used in the KLF20, KLF30, and Epic CF2.

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Remember that this horn was used in the KLF20, KLF30, and Epic CF2.

 

First of all, as usual, thanks for the great info, djk!  :emotion-21:   I'm not a long-timer here so I suppose everybody except me knows who your are, but someday I would like you to list your bio or background, because every time you post something, I nearly always wonder how the heck you know all this stuff!  :D

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To the point, my question was "is the CF-2 horn the same as the CF-4?"  Going by the pictures it looks as if the CF-2-3-4 horns are all the same.  I know the CF- 3 & 4 use the same K-63 CD, but the CF-2 uses the K-64.  I don't know the difference in those drivers.

 

Ordered as a repair part from the service department for "your freight damaged KLF20/30," the Klipsch part number is 130024 and the MSRP is $30. If a bunch of you try this, get your sh*t together first. Don't all order the same thing on the same day.

 

 

Are you saying the horn is still available from Klipsch as a replacement part?  I don't have a freight damaged KLF 20/30, but I'm pretty sure I have a "freight damaged" horn from my 20 year-old CF-4.  :laugh:

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I quoted myself from a 2002 post, the horns may still be available from Klipsch, give them a call..

 

I do have a K703 if Klipsch does not.

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Hello, new to this site and in need of a new tweeter for my CF-3.  I guess I would buy the entire thing (without the actual horn front piece).  If you have an extra K-63-KN I am a very interested person.  Thanks, Bill

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Do you need the whole driver, or just need yours repaired?

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THe tweeter sounds muffled, flat so I guess it is blown.  Fixing to me is out with the bad in with the good so I guess I need all of it less the plastic cone you see from the front.  obviously I have not removed a speaker before so I will assume the horn part screws onto the driver and then all of it into the speaker.  I hope it is that easy anyway.  I do not wish to dismantle the mechanism inside to replace 1 part of it.  If the driver is the whole tweeter less the black plastic square funnel like horn thingamajig then I need that.   THanks for responding.  Bill

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Have you swapped horns to be sure it is not the crossover?

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Also, make sure the speaker taps to the highs are tight. One time on my CF3's the nut behind one of the posts became loose and that of course effected the sound. I had to pull out the crossover network and tighten it from the inside.

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