Quiet_Hollow Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 However, I didn't broach the subject but only addressed the comment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 FWIW - I've never read or experienced anything overwhelmingly positive about audio over USB into a DAC as a hi-fi solution. I think the main positive for usb interconnection is its ability to transfer very large data throughputs with reduced jitter effects as long as it is designed well. Why you would mention it at all in context. and then deny it has relevance is a bit mysterious... Chris does that explain the comment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Actually...no, it doesn't. But I'm willing to call it a draw and move on. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 is it possible that your CD player is applying some sort of pre-dac processing that you simply find more appealing than the (potentially) flat output of JRiver? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 anything is possible.. but the oppo is set for bitrate transfer which is supposed to be the unprocessed/uncompressed format and the 93 really doesn't have wondrous processing... really only pcm, bitrate and that's about it. I think it is much more likely that jRiver doing something to the output seeing as it is extremely power in that regard and I am experiencing an overly processed signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 anything is possible.. but the oppo is set for bitrate transfer which is supposed to be the unprocessed/uncompressed format and the 93 really doesn't have wondrous processing... really only pcm, bitrate and that's about it. I think it is much more likely that jRiver doing something to the output seeing as it is extremely power in that regard and I am experiencing an overly processed signal. I've actually listened to both FLAC files and the corresponding CD via the 93 and I do notice a difference similar to what you described in the original post, which is why I asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) not really, bad is bad even though folks will always disagree. Listening to something and comparing things back to back to back is the only way I know to effectively determine whether or not a piece of equipment or a process is beneficial to my system/set up. this puts a lot of emphasis on memory of the critical part being scrutinized. That being said, patterns advantage or detriment emerge after successive comparisons that support or expose the critical listeners interpretation. I noticed very quickly that something had changed when I used the Surface jRiver USB process (that is why I made repetitive comparisons), and that change was NOT beneficial by any stretch of the imagination. It's not likened to a novice choice to use Surround sound, the end signal is essentially the same in terms of post DAC processing... NILL. It is more akin to using integrated amplification versus separates, only much much more noticeable. the end signal is flat, compressed and lacks any dimension between components... very well resolved and smooth, but flat none the less. I think it is probably related to an output selection in jRiver... I was running jRiver as downloaded and spent most of my time making comparisons between multiple formats of the exact same music that also included Vinyl, I need to get in there and see what is happening. Others have said it is probably related to PCM... I will start there. Edited June 15, 2015 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKNorton Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 "the end signal is flat, compressed and lacks any dimension between components... very well resolved and smooth, but flat none the less." Could you be getting mono or sound out of just one speaker maybe? Happened to me with Jriver years ago with an incorrectly installed driver. I use linux version now but from what I remember of Windows version: In Player options: Check correct driver and output type (Wasapi?) selected. Also in device options open device for exclusive access. I think you also select max volume here (only if you have hardware volume control). Where listed make sure recommended options are in place (I.e buffer size, Bitstreaming off etc) For now, turn off all options under DSP studio (uncheck all options in left hand box). Then compare your Jriver without any upsampling etc with the original CD. Personally I don't like the sound of JRiver when upsampling/transcoding -prefer HQ Player for this. Finally, how much time have you listened to Jriver for? It could just be that you aren't used to it yet - in my experience what proves to be good longer-term can sometimes sound a bit "restrained" (ie in reality more neutral and accurate) compared to what you're used to on first hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 Interesting post... one thing about learning to listen to jRiver, why? I've got an ideal of what good sound is, and I acheived that but I am trying to enhance it further with expanded convenience and scalability interms of a library... but NOT at the sake of quality I have fought so hard for and invested so much in. Like I had mentioned, if you had never heard anything different, one might asume that jRiver/computer playback as be all end all of that convenience and quality equation... I have not found it to be so, yet. I need to continue to play around with settings in jRiver... I am sure something is amiss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 Could you be getting mono... I've heard better sound from good mono systems... I personally enjoy mono very much. Both speakers are fully functional. Though there could possibly be some timing issue induced by the jRiver/computer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKNorton Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 One other option (and please don't take this the wrong way). The Surface is a tablet isn't it? If you are using your Surface as the source rather than just the control point, (I.e. your USB cable goes from Surface to DAC), then it may simply be that a tablet is not the best source for computer audio. With an integral screen etc I imagine that all kinds of "noise" is being generated and USB connection will be prone to pass this on. If an option, you could try an optical connection instead or simply another computer. However as Jriver offers all kinds of speaker /channel/room correction options, which might cause what you describe if used inappropriately, I'd start by making sure all DSP studio options are unchecked. What you describe doesn't 't sound right. I'm running Jriver on a £200 mini PC connected by USB to a Chord Hugo and the sound quality is way better than my Oppo 105 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJIann Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 After reading these posts I went back and did some comparisons last night by putting a CD in my OPPO 103 and playing the same music on my computer (FLAC files uploaded from the same CD playing, played using Foobar2000). I then toggled back and forth on the OPPO between the CD source and the HDMI IN source (i.e., computer source via HDMI input into my OPPO) to compare. Did this for several artists/genre/etc. The only difference I could hear was in the volume. The HDMI source was always a bit louder, presumably because of the computer out volume being on max. The music quality, clarity, etc. was identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 I still have not had time to get into jRiver to try different settings... but as is plainly obvious, things are all over the board. Some say it's the same sound... some say it's better sound... and, as I have said, it's inferior (so far). I really do not think it is the computer from a processor perspective,it could however be a usb output issue... I have not ruled that out as yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Schu, I would make sure all the firmware updates have been done on the Surface, plus OS updates. Especially regarding the USB port. They are great tablets, and should work great for your purpose. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 this jRiver is very frustrating... Changing to wasapi from direct did in fact much better sound and dimension, but now the player will not play some files. I have converted some files to DSD128 to see how that plays and it's pretty good but still a step or so behind the Oppo set up, but it's very close. interestingly I do believe it was the up sampling that caused most of the issues, when I played the wasapi files back @ 44kz instead on 176 or 192 I get much better dimension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tromprof Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Which version of JRiver are you using? Is it some files don't play, or some file types (FLAC, wave, mp3, etc.)? Have you poked around the JRiver forums? Lots of good info and problem solving there. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/ http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Main_Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKNorton Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 this jRiver is very frustrating... Changing to wasapi from direct did in fact much better sound and dimension, but now the player will not play some files. I have converted some files to DSD128 to see how that plays and it's pretty good but still a step or so behind the Oppo set up, but it's very close. interestingly I do believe it was the up sampling that caused most of the issues, when I played the wasapi files back @ 44kz instead on 176 or 192 I get much better dimension. I do think JRiver sounds best playing files at their native format & resolution. But if you are looking for highest SQ, interested in best execution of DSD conversion and PCM up sampling and prepared to spend some more money and sacrifice some convenience (ie no remote app), I would recommend HQ Player from Signalyst. They offer a 30 day free evaluation copy for Windows. I have licenses for both, and to my ears HQP clearly betters JR on SQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I used to use JRiver, but after some time it would start crashing...so I went to Kodi, and now everything plays fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I have not used a music disc for more than several years. I don't even have any in the house. I should pick a couple up just to see if I can tell a difference betwee the disc and digital. Even if I could hear a slight difference, digital is so much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prerich Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) I used to use JRiver, but after some time it would start crashing...so I went to Kodi, and now everything plays fine. Kodi is free - but didn't offer enough audio options for me. I've been a JRiver user since 16 (about 4 years) and it works perfectly for me. Now I need to go back to the beginning of this thread and see if I can be of some help Edited June 22, 2015 by prerich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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