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A question or two for the turntable gurus


teknoid

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Soon I'll be putting together a new 2 channel system and I plan to include a turntable. Budget is not yet set but that hasn't stopped me from shopping. I'm pretty sure that there's a pair of Cornwalls or perhaps Cornscalas to be driven by some tube amplification in my future.

 

The question is about "balance" when buying a turntable and cartridge. Specifically what should the cost ratio of the turntable / cartridge be?

 

Many years ago I worked for a boutique audio reseller. Real high end stuff. During our sales training we were taught to advise customer to spend 50% of their budget on speakers and the rest on whatever equipment was going to be feeding the speakers. I'm wondering if there's a similar rule on turntable / cartridge cost.

 

Assuming a turntable budget of $3000.00 and assuming that I won't need a phono preamp the options would be (1) a $1.5K table and a $1.5k cartridge, (2) a $1k cartridge and a $2K cartridge, (3) a $2k cartridge and a $1k table, or (4) a $500 table and cartridge combo and $2.5K worth of albums.

 

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.

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better yet... buy all of it and call it a decade.

 

that being said OP, I found a level of diminishing returns for cartridges begins right around that $1000-$1500+ level, meaning you would probably need to spend A LOT more to get noticeable gains... to me the table is much less impactful than is a very good cartridge. you want a good stable/solid/heavy base to work from, but beyond that I would spend my capital in the cartridge, Phonostage and preamp areas.

 

using your analogy about pricing break down at a level of $3000... I would spend my money this way:

 

Table: 1000-1500

Cartridge: 1000-2000

Pre: 750-1500

 

spending more in the table section get's you convenience and customization (plenty of good tables can be had in the 750-1500 region on the used market)... more adjustments. that can be problematic if you don't know what you are doing.

Edited by Schu
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As luck would have it I do know a thing or two about turntables. Over the the past 40+ years I've been dabbling in audio I've owned everything from a basic BSR changer to some pretty spendy Clear Audio kit.

 

My concern is that a high end cartridge will reveal the weaknesses of a low end table and a low end cartridge will not be able to take advantage of the advantages of a high end table.

 

Just as an FYI the $3K reference was simply a "talking point" and NOT my budget.

 

At the moment I'm thinking a maxed out Uturn-Audio table and an Ortofon 2M blue or maybe a bronze.

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as a word of perspective... as trick as it is, I dont think my VPI Classic 2 ($2500+) is $1500 better than my $1000 hotrodded Rega P5 was.

 

BUT, my $1500 Soundsmith Aida IS INDEED $1200 better than my Denon 103R

Edited by Schu
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Since my 'for sale' turntable has been linked to I thought it might be OK to post in this thread without appearing to sell my stuff.

To the OP as the original question re: table vs cart I offer this as MY opinion.

 

First you get a turntable that runs at a consistent speed, sounds simple but.... Then you get an arm mounted to it that is adjustable in the vertical tracking alignment (VTA) and azimuth (in my words, leaning left or right when viewed from the front, head on). Add the ability to adjust the two aforementioned EASILY as this is paramount. I finally achieved this by getting LED lighted magnifying glasses; what a help and difference! Also a simple 6" level across the platter was not enough to show that it was not "level" so a precision level was required.

 

How does this help to answer your ratio question? Well it doesn't BUT I can tell you that you need speed control, level and vibration control before the fine tuning of cart selection finalizes the deal.

 

In my case, in new MSRP terms, $8000 for turntable / arm and $750 cart bettered anything I have heard. In real terms I paid in the mid $2000s for the TT/arm used  and then bought the new cart.

 

Good Luck with your search.

 

Edit: I put a $750 cart on a $500 table in the 80's and it sucked just as bad as the $50 cart. Get a good table.

Edited by USNRET
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My concern is that a high end cartridge will reveal the weaknesses of a low end table and a low end cartridge will not be able to take advantage of the advantages of a high end table.  

I think this is very true, except you need to add the tonearm to the equation.  Those are the three legs of the LP quality stool, so to speak, and you can't make up for a lesser tonearm with a better TT or cart.  Each type has a very different characteristic that can't be substituted for by a different component.  That's why USNR's setup is a terrific combination of all three that should be seriously considered if it's still available.

Edited by LarryC
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  • 3 weeks later...
Soon I'll be putting together a new 2 channel system and I plan to include a turntable. Budget is not yet set but that hasn't stopped me from shopping. I'm pretty sure that there's a pair of Cornwalls or perhaps Cornscalas to be driven by some tube amplification in my future.   The question is about "balance" when buying a turntable and cartridge. Specifically what should the cost ratio of the turntable / cartridge be?   Many years ago I worked for a boutique audio reseller. Real high end stuff. During our sales training we were taught to advise customer to spend 50% of their budget on speakers and the rest on whatever equipment was going to be feeding the speakers. I'm wondering if there's a similar rule on turntable / cartridge cost.  
Hi Tek,

 

Is this question still pending, and did you get your setup OK?

 

Personally, I don't believe in spending ratios or other magic formulas, but it's great if it works for you!

  • Basis makes top-notch tables, IMO -- silent, full-sounding, rock-solid rotation speed.  Suspended tables are bouncy if they're not on a solid stand, but seem to be a little quieter if you solve that issue.
  • The Ortofon 2M black is likewise among he best of the best in MM carts.  I doubt that you want to fool with moving coil.  I believe Mallette wisely chose the Ortofon black over other brands and models he looked at.
  • The tonearm is a vital component, and USN's Graham is very good.  While I cannot comment on its competitors, it's not all alone in quality. VPI, SME are other fine makes, and the Basis Vector arm is as good as it gets IMO.  What NOT to get is an arm that doesn't feel as good to move around, such as Rega arms I've played with.  Stick with the Graham if in doubt.

Note that selecting by the amounts spent by component answers NONE of these questions or issues for you!

 

Hope this helps.

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The purchase has not yet taken place. I'm still in research mode.

 

From what I've been most drawn to the budget is shaping up to be in the $20 to $25K range for the entire system. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less. That places the turntable budget at around $5K. At the moment a VPI Prime with an Ortofon 2M Black is at the top of the list turntable wise with the remainder of the $5K being spent on albums.

 

I'm currently looking for a way to do an A-B-C comparison between La Scalas, Palladiums, and Reference speakers. I'm leaning toward La Scalas because I've previous owned a pair but I'd like to hear the other options. Also in the running is a pair of upper end Magnepans. I've owned several pairs of them and while their sound is VERY different from Klipsch speakers it's a sound that agrees with my ears. As I'm currently living in a fairly confined space my current speakers are a pair of Heresys. In my storage area is a pair of Magnepan SMGa. I swap them back and forth from time to time.

 

Shoot me if you want but my ears like Maggies and Klipsch horns pretty much equally. I could easily live with either. Each changes the front end hardware as Klipsch like tubes and Maggies NEED power.

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With that kind of budget, you can easily go for Jubilees.  The pair of speakers will cost about $7000, but come without crossovers.  You'll need an active electronic crossover.  You can find an EV Dx38 or DC One for under $1000.  Then all you need is a pair of matching clean-sounding 2-channel amps, since the speakers are designed to be bi-amped.  The active crossover also allows them to be time-aligned.

 

These are not experimental in any way.  They were meant to be the Klipsch-designed successors to the Klipschorn, but turned out so much better than expected that they were given a new name.  The Jubilees were designed by Paul Klipsch himself, working with Roy Delgado.

 

Nearly everyone who has a pair of Jubilees loves them.  My budget was smaller, so I went for JubScalas (La Scalas with Jubilee tweeters).  That was seven years ago.  I listen to them nearly every day, and every time, I'm reminded it was a good idea to buy them.

 

Do a bit of research, including on this forum, and you'll be able to find out what you need to know.

Edited by Islander
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Here's a picture of Roy Delgado beside a Jubilee.  They're also available with a decorative wood insert in the middle section, so they look a bit less like stage speakers.

post-21606-0-20120000-1435909105_thumb.j

Edited by Islander
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Now that's what I call fantasy budget. I'm jealous for sure. 

 

Still, I'd probably do it this way.

 

Khorns or Jubs.  I'm sorry Lascalas are to me the weak link of Heritage speakers. With your budget you can get something that will go deeper while being fully horn loaded.  Not looking to pick a fight it's strictly IMO.

 

Great bargains on the Forum for Palladium's right now, you'd probably be able to sell them for what you bought them comes this Fall when the stereo market  picks up. That' s if you didn't like them,.

 

 

 

Also not a fan of suspended turntables, and VPI is basically using gimmicks to keep their line afloat and disguise the 50 year old technology with board and platter upgrades etc.  It was an interesting experiment that has too many variables to deliver great sound reproduction.   IMO again.

 

Me, I'd be on that barely used Basis setup in a New York Minute, given your budget.

 

Mucho options in your budget range for preamp/amp combos. Heritage loves tubes and depending on the space either SET/SEP or Push/PUll on the amp, and as far as tubes go the real magic is in those small tubes in the preamp or, hopefully, tubed phono stage. 

 

Dacs for streaming and cd playback are common as go turds on a New Orleans Street (can you tell I'm biased toward record playback?). Use the search function and you will be flooded with good knowledge.

 

Finally depending upon your listening tastes, forget that advice about MM's and go for a LOMC for a cart. It's a trip well worth taking.

 

With all of this stuff take your time, One component at a time and then proceed.  Don't throw money at your ears and hope it will stick.  It's a journey. There's plenty of magic out there, just take your time finding it. Impress yourself, not your friends. OH, and share your thoughts as you proceed.

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Also not a fan of suspended turntables, and VPI is basically using gimmicks to keep their line afloat and disguise the 50 year old technology with board and platter upgrades etc.  It was an interesting experiment that has too many variables to deliver great sound reproduction.   IMO again.   Me, I'd be on that barely used Basis setup in a New York Minute, given your budget.  

 

Good conclusion IMO, Marty.  Basis is very solid and super quality through and through.  I and Gary can't be wrong, now can we?

 

 

Finally depending upon your listening tastes, forget that advice about MM's and go for a LOMC for a cart. It's a trip well worth taking.

 

Depends on how complicated he wants to make it.  MM = virtually plug and play into a receiver or preamp's phono input.

 

In contrast, LOMC = transformer or pre-preamp with careful matching for gain between the cart and phono stage in the preamp.  IMO, the best way to do that is ask around the forum for examples of component combos that work.  Some on the forum probably have it down pat, with a Denon 103 Zu and a specified added phono stage or transformer that has been proven by forum member experience.  A good LOMC should be mated with a quality = expensive tonearm, also in my opinion.  Gary's and my Transfiguration carts and Basis Vector tonearm are cases in point, but only Gary got the great pricing.

 

The lesson I derive from this is, stick with a top MM unless you're serious about going with an LOMC.  LOMC's are more transparent and closer to the sound of music in my opinion, so it's worth it for me and some others.  MM's tend to have a full, robust sound and present no problems plugging into an amp or preamp with ordinary levels of phono gain.  A top MM like the Ortofon Black has a great, accurate sound.

 

For gain levels, that translates to around 33 dB phono gain for a MM, and around 50 to 70 dB phono gain for an LOMC.  That's a LOT of gain to fool with, and that range is very great.  You have to hit a "sweet spot" of amount of gain for it to work well.  You can't just guess at it.

 

In my opinion, don't bother with high-output MC carts.  Although these can sometimes function in MM inputs, I find them less transparent (sometimes out-and-out opaque) in sound quality.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited by LarryC
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  • 2 weeks later...

Balance between TT and cartridge is not about budget. It is about matching the physical characteristics of arm and cartridge. One of the best experiences I had was with a Denon 103 Cartridge on a clearaudio TT with a linear tracking arm. Thats a $10K TT with a $150 cart.

 

It just so happened that the specs of the cart (tracking weight, compliance etc.) were perfect for the passive linear tracker.

 

So breaking this down a bit further - the TT itself should be well isolated (from its own motor as much as anything), level and, if you are not going suspended, solid. Mass helps.

 

The arm and cart are a combo. You should always get the one with the other in mind. That said, years of enjoyment can be had experimenting with other carts later on, but you want to start on a solid footing.

 

Then there is the phono stage. If you are going MM then a phono stage built in to your pre-amp should be fine. MC will require more gain than most built in phono stages can muster. When I ran the Denon and a Shelter 901 I had a 67 dB gain Acoustic Signature Tango to drive them.

 

You might want to factor in a power supply for the TT. Most TT motors get their timing from the mains. Having something that can provide a fixed 50Hz or 60Hz output can make quite a difference.

 

Also worth bearing in mind that keeping a record flat (outer ring, vacuum system w.h.y) has a huge effect on the work that the arm and cantilever have to do. I used the clearaudio outer ring on my system and it was as if I doubled the capabilities of the arm, cart combo (a big reason as to why the Denon worked so well).

 

I've probably just confused the whole thing for you. Sorry - I got really into vinyl back in the day.

Edited by maxg
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