Quiet_Hollow Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) I picked up a new AVR in the form of a Pioneer Elite SC-87. I really wanted this unit because of what MCACC Pro dubs "full-band phase control". What this affords, and how it differentiates itself from the Audyssey product suite, is time-alignment of the signal. Sure the unit also has an EQ component and standing wave control (both a very big deal sound-wise just like Audyssey), but regardless, the results of phase control are easily discernible and overwhelmingly positive in terms of stereo geometry and transient quality. Dare I say "more hi-fi". For now, I shot a video using metal as a source because I've never done one. Rock on! Note: I forgot to pull the coffee table out of the way when recording (it's located down and in front of the camera just out of frame) so there's a pretty good suck-out and some extra hash in the mids from that reflection that I didn't discover until I had a chance to review everything in post. There's always a catch when trying to record audio....today would've been the neighbors dog barking. Edited June 19, 2015 by Quiet_Hollow 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I like those units. Are they still using ICE for power delivery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) no... the Sc35/37 were the last Ice Based units. Edited June 19, 2015 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Tom, I think the phase control on the SC 85/87 is a nice feature and should equate to a more tranparent sound, i.e. cleane sound. That should really make those La Scala shine. After reading your post the other day I was in the store looking at the reduced price on the SC 85. These avr's also offer dual sub EQ. I may be following your's and Schu's footsteps soom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted June 20, 2015 Author Share Posted June 20, 2015 That'd be cool Derrick. Time alignment is exactly what the Heritage horns need, and there's plenty more tweaking to had. I'm not even close to done. Doubling the subwoofer, Bi-amping the L,C, & R channels, patching the AS-EQ1 back in, Dennis's mod to the Heresy Industrials, a few acoustic panels, and final EQ tweaks......and waaaay out....cross bracing the mouths, closing off the back of the tops, and perhaps even Dean's PIO "A" filter networks. Very curious with Onkyo's buyout of Pioneer if they'll either continue, assimilate, or bury the D3 amps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 For anyone looking to bi-amp or tri-amp their stock La Scala in an effort to align them, delay values are as follows: LF 0 ms MF 0.5 ms HF 2.0 ms 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 What is the precision of the stated MCACC delay values above? I calculate that the midrange delay is more like 0.56 ms based on the depth differences between the Belle and the La Scala. The Belle's midrange delay is 0.98 ms from my measurements using REW. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) Just picked them off of the excess group delay plot. Edited January 18, 2016 by Quiet_Hollow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 FYI I got a tremendous amount of bass on my CF-4's w/15" sub playing your Youtube vid! ^^^ How is your center channel set up? Is one speaker not connected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Can you explain exactly how you are doing this? Are the LS bass, mid, and tweets being fed by different amps or is the software doing delays/processing to feed regular passive crossovers? I want to understand the process here. Thanks, Bruce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) The Belle's midrange delay is 0.98 ms from my measurements using REW. i suppose I could go back and confirm with REW as the vertical scale on the plot appears to be a little unconventional. Definitely in the ballpark. Edited December 31, 2015 by Quiet_Hollow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) That first lick by KMFDM is a real fun one. Same goes for Fear Factory right at the end. The center channel is the two cabs wired in series, but they aren't running in the above video. Edited December 31, 2015 by Quiet_Hollow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Can you explain exactly how you are doing this? Are the LS bass, mid, and tweets being fed by different amps or is the software doing delays/processing to feed regular passive crossovers? I want to understand the process here. Thanks, Bruce He never did explain it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 Can you explain exactly how you are doing this? Are the LS bass, mid, and tweets being fed by different amps or is the software doing delays/processing to feed regular passive crossovers? I want to understand the process here. The amp has provisions to do both, but it still requires the passive networks. The owner can either leave everything patched together (stock) and let the software have it's best go at it in the signal domain, or the filter networks can be split up and driven individually. Where it differs from looking like the classic bi-wiring job is that once split, the software can delay each amp discretely by the required amount. I run 5.1 exclusively which typically leaves a pile of amp channels unused, so I set Pioneer to bi-amp the front three instead. As a footnote, of all things, even the Panasonic XR has the capability to do this. I just didn't have a chance to employ it at the time, because I didn't have the delay values at my disposal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I run 5.1 exclusively which typically leaves a pile of amp channels unused, so I set Pioneer to bi-amp the front three instead. Are you using separate channels/power for all three components in each LS or only two? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 Only two, between the LF and MF for a total of six channels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) I dont see time alignment in my settings... or is it done automatically as part of mcacc? Edited December 31, 2015 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 Automatically as part of MCACC Pro. Bi-wiring involves changing the Speaker System Setting option in the Manual Speaker Setup menu, re-wiring all your crossover networks, then re-running MCACC Pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 (edited) I picked up a new AVR in the form of a Pioneer Elite SC-87. I really wanted this unit because of what MCACC Pro dubs "full-band phase control". What this affords, and how it differentiates itself from the Audyssey product suite, is time-alignment of the signal. Sure the unit also has an EQ component and standing wave control (both a very big deal sound-wise just like Audyssey), but regardless, the results of phase control are easily discernible and overwhelmingly positive in terms of stereo geometry and transient quality. Dare I say "more hi-fi". Time alignment is exactly what the Heritage horns need, and there's plenty more tweaking to had. I'm not even close to done. Doubling the subwoofer, Bi-amping the L,C, & R channels, patching the AS-EQ1 back in, Dennis's mod to the Heresy Industrials, a few acoustic panels, and final EQ tweaks......and waaaay out....cross bracing the mouths, closing off the back of the tops, and perhaps even Dean's PIO "A" filter networks. Very curious with Onkyo's buyout of Pioneer if they'll either continue, assimilate, or bury the D3 amps. Can you explain exactly how you are doing this? Are the LS bass, mid, and tweets being fed by different amps or is the software doing delays/processing to feed regular passive crossovers? I want to understand the process here. The amp has provisions to do both, but it still requires the passive networks. The owner can either leave everything patched together (stock) and let the software have it's best go at it in the signal domain, or the filter networks can be split up and driven individually. Where it differs from looking like the classic bi-wiring job is that once split, the software can delay each amp discretely by the required amount. I run 5.1 exclusively which typically leaves a pile of amp channels unused, so I set Pioneer to bi-amp the front three instead. As a footnote, of all things, even the Panasonic XR has the capability to do this. I just didn't have a chance to employ it at the time, because I didn't have the delay values at my disposal. Great thread! In the Crown amplifier thread I posted that I keep meaning to get back to the Pioneer SC-85 threads and see if you or anyone of the other Pioneer guys has any opinions about the additional features of MCACC Pro vs Advanced MCACC, then I remembered this thread. I didn't realize that the Pioneer SC-87 had MCACC Pro and I'm not sure about the SC-85. However, it sure looks like a Pioneer SC-95 or any model with a lot of amplifiers and MCACC Pro would go a long way in mitigating a lot of problems in a heritage speaker / horn surround system. Just moved, most items in storage right now and apartment living until I can get into a house again; however, I have two Klipschorn speakers, a single Belle and two split La Scala speakers that a Pioneer SC receiver and MCACC Pro seems to be tailor made for a time-aligned surround-type implementation. Although, the more I read ChrisA;s thread on his K-402 center...... On a side note, a while ago I was looking for a Crown K2 for a future subwoofer project; however, I ended up finding a "can't pass it up" deal on a QSC PLX3402. My Khorns getting ready for storage. Edited January 17, 2016 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted January 18, 2016 Author Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Just a quickie I shot tonight with the cellphone while watching our latest rental. Struck gold. These two clips clearly demonstrate the fact that music is just as important as the sound effects for a good movie presentation. Really can't have one without the other, as is most commonly debated in HT vs 2-ch discussions. Some questions to ask yourself while listening: 1. What's the crossover point of the subwoofer? 2. What are the filter settings of the AVR and sub amp to achieve said crossover point? 3. Can you tell who the two voice actors are at the end of the clip, just by listening? 4. Why do some Samsung Galaxy phones randomly record noise? 5. How much acoustic treatment does this room have? Edited January 18, 2016 by Quiet_Hollow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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