Speaker Project Consideration

[philly0116]

Let me preface this thread by saying a few things. A) Not trying to win any awards B.) Not trying to build something to the likes of which no one has heard. C) This is going to be a learning experience so I'm not looking to spend $2k. D) I want to put together a good looking 2 way speaker with nice sound and decent components. 

 

I have got the itch to put together a speaker project. I would like to learn a little about veneer among other things and this looks like a way I could do it without breaking the bank or being to upset if it didn't work out right. I have been on Parts Express and I have put a list of Items together that I thought might work together. I was hoping I could get some advice here from those more knowledgeable than myself on whether the items, put together, would make good 2 chan speakers. I want a 2" horn in these and a decent bass/mid range. They don't have to over achieve in the bass region because I have a good sub. I just want a large horn that sounds good. I would really like less of a directional horn and one that covers a broader area. Below is the list I assembled. I know it would take a minute to look at each component and consider its place in the project so I would sincerely appreciate any input that anyone would have, positive or negative or maybe a suggestion on replacing a certain part for something else. I may be way off on the crossover being right for the horn, horn driver and 15" driver so go easy on me!! I have always just bought speakers, never put any together. I listed 2 horn drivers, not sure if one would work better than the other. Thank you!! 

 

ps. I have a modified list of possibilities besides this on down the thread. 

 

http://www.parts-express.com/pa-knock-down-trapezoid-plywood-speaker-cabinet-for-15-driver--245-326

 

http://www.parts-express.com/selenium-hl4750-slf-2-bi-radial-horn-40x20-4-bolt--264-329

 

http://www.parts-express.com/selenium-d3300ti-dpd-2-titanium-horn-driver-4-bolt--264-228

 

http://www.parts-express.com/selenium-d3305ti-dpd-2-titanium-horn-driver-4-bolt--264-226

 

http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-pxb2-800-2-way-speaker-crossover-board-800-hz--290-632

 

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pa380-8-15-pro-woofer--295-034

Edited July 8, 2015 by philly0116

[MookieStl]

I have used most of these components or a similar one by the same manufacturer. All should perform well. My first concern is that the woofer you chose will probably not keep up with your horn. It is a very good woofer for it's price point but will not put out the db's that horn will. If you want to stick with Dayton the series II, or their professional version both will give you better output. Looks like a fun project. Others with more experience will chime in with more suggestions, I'm sure. Good luck with the project.

[philly0116]

I have used most of these components or a similar one by the same manufacturer. All should perform well. My first concern is that the woofer you chose will probably not keep up with your horn. It is a very good woofer for it's price point but will not put out the db's that horn will. If you want to stick with Dayton the series II, or their professional version both will give you better output. Looks like a fun project. Others with more experience will chime in with more suggestions, I'm sure. Good luck with the project.

I really appreciate that! Good eye! I didn't even notice the low DB value of the woofer.

[wvu80]

Building a speaker kit with a generic off-the-shelf crossover means you are not going to be able to properly match your woofer and tweeter.  I am afraid you are going to be severely disappointed with the mismatched sound.

 

If you like the 15" woofer, here is an outstanding DIY horn driven speaker kit with a 15" woof and 15" SEOS waveguide that will knock your socks off, 99db sensitivity.

Fusion 15 Sentinel, by DIY Soundgroup

 

The appeal of the SEOS waveguide is that it has outstanding off-axis sound.  I have two sets with the 12" SEOS waveguide and they are very natural sounding (no horn honkiness) and go loud without distortion.  The pair I have with the 15" woofer has a tremendous mid-range, male and female voices sound very live!  I have a much cheaper woofer than the kit I suggested.  Mine are called the Cheap Thrill built for around $200, and are no longer available.  You can get the plans if you want for free.

 

The advantage of the SEOS speakers is that there are several builds documented on AVSforum.com, and because it is a grass-roots DIY kit you will find tons of support from people who have built these, and from the kit seller Erich who has a cult following from those who have bought from him.  He sells these at or near cost, so the bang-for-buck is unbeatable.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1824938-fusion-15-sentinel-build.html

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/401-diy-sound-group-loudspeakers-subwoofers/1953793-has-anyone-compared-tempests-v2-sentinels.html

 

 

That was a great deal. I've also got a full 5.1 -- Chorus II, Academy, and Quartet -- that I'd like to find a new home for, but it won't be $500. ;-)

(snip)
Anyway, I think your issue just comes down to output capability. Your KGs are a two-way with an 8" woofer and aren't terribly efficient, as Klipsch speakers go, and you've already highlighted that the Fusion 8 specs out about the same. It seems to me that in terms of output capability, that's going to be a lateral move, or nearly so, and what you really want is just more cone area.

I'd consider at least the Fusion 12, maybe even the Sentinel, or the Cinema 10 Max. The Fusion 12 will get you Heresy output levels, which is something my BiL's KGs could only aspire to; the Sentinels ought to get you into La Scala territory, and the Cinema 10s will have an advantage in controlling floor bounce and may have a form-factor advantage as well, depending on your space.

 

Moosifee Post # 7 in AVSforum.com

 

 

+++

 

Disclaimer:  I usually don't like to recommend products that are not Klipsch, because they are our hosts.  In this case because the OP is discussing a DIY project, I don't consider such kits competitors to Klipsch.  Klipsch offers full service in dealers and full-time tech support, and the Klipsch come with a full warranty and have beautiful finishes on them, the DIY kits do not.  The DIY kits do offer great sound for the dollar, but they will not reward you at resale time like a Klipsch speaker will.

Edited July 5, 2015 by wvu80

[philly0116]

Building a speaker kit with a generic off-the-shelf crossover means you are not going to be able to properly match your woofer and tweeter.  I am afraid you are going to be severely disappointed with the mismatched sound.

 

If you like the 15" woofer, here is an outstanding speaker with a 15" woof and 15" SEOS waveguide that will knock your socks off, 99db sensitivity.

Fusion 15 Sentinel, by DIY Soundgroup

 

The appeal of the SEOS waveguide is that it has outstanding off-axis sound.  I have two sets with the 12" SEOS waveguide and they are very natural sounding (no horn honkiness) and go loud without distortion.  The pair I have with the 15" woofer has a tremendous mid-range, male and female voices sound very live!  I have a much cheaper woofer than the kit I suggested.  Mine are called the Cheap Thrill built for around $200, and are no longer available.  You can get the plans if you want for free.

 

The advantage of the SEOS speakers is that there are several builds documented on AVSforum.com, and because it is a grass-roots DIY kit you will find tons of support from people who have built these, and from the kit seller Eric who has a cult following from those who have bought from him.  He sells these at or near cost, so the bang-for-buck is unbeatable.

I appreciate the honesty and the info. Thats a little disappointing about not being able to get the woofer and the horn close in sound, however, the speaker you attached the link to looks pretty cool. I was just hoping to use the birch cabinet off Parts Express. Its a little taller.  

[philly0116]

Im quickly seeing there is builders and there are buyers....perhaps I should be content with being a buyer! Lol. 

[tromprof]

Building an outstanding sounding speaker does not have to hard, but it takes research. There are a number of great designs from Crite's Cornscalas and his smaller DIY designs, to Claude's Qaurter Pie bass horns which I have built. The two designs I have listed should not tax a modest ability to cut wood and follow directions. In the case of the QPs you will have a bass horn that is hard to beat at any price, and can change and upgrade mids and tweets as means become available.

[philly0116]

Building a speaker kit with a generic off-the-shelf crossover means you are not going to be able to properly match your woofer and tweeter.  I am afraid you are going to be severely disappointed with the mismatched sound.

 

If you like the 15" woofer, here is an outstanding DIY horn driven speaker kit with a 15" woof and 15" SEOS waveguide that will knock your socks off, 99db sensitivity.

Fusion 15 Sentinel, by DIY Soundgroup

 

The appeal of the SEOS waveguide is that it has outstanding off-axis sound.  I have two sets with the 12" SEOS waveguide and they are very natural sounding (no horn honkiness) and go loud without distortion.  The pair I have with the 15" woofer has a tremendous mid-range, male and female voices sound very live!  I have a much cheaper woofer than the kit I suggested.  Mine are called the Cheap Thrill built for around $200, and are no longer available.  You can get the plans if you want for free.

 

The advantage of the SEOS speakers is that there are several builds documented on AVSforum.com, and because it is a grass-roots DIY kit you will find tons of support from people who have built these, and from the kit seller Erich who has a cult following from those who have bought from him.  He sells these at or near cost, so the bang-for-buck is unbeatable.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1824938-fusion-15-sentinel-build.html

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/401-diy-sound-group-loudspeakers-subwoofers/1953793-has-anyone-compared-tempests-v2-sentinels.html

 

 

That was a great deal. I've also got a full 5.1 -- Chorus II, Academy, and Quartet -- that I'd like to find a new home for, but it won't be $500. ;-)

(snip)

Anyway, I think your issue just comes down to output capability. Your KGs are a two-way with an 8" woofer and aren't terribly efficient, as Klipsch speakers go, and you've already highlighted that the Fusion 8 specs out about the same. It seems to me that in terms of output capability, that's going to be a lateral move, or nearly so, and what you really want is just more cone area.

I'd consider at least the Fusion 12, maybe even the Sentinel, or the Cinema 10 Max. The Fusion 12 will get you Heresy output levels, which is something my BiL's KGs could only aspire to; the Sentinels ought to get you into La Scala territory, and the Cinema 10s will have an advantage in controlling floor bounce and may have a form-factor advantage as well, depending on your space.

 

Moosifee Post # 7 in AVSforum.com

 

 

+++

 

Disclaimer:  I usually don't like to recommend products that are not Klipsch, because they are our hosts.  In this case because the OP is discussing a DIY project, I don't consider such kits competitors to Klipsch.  Klipsch offers full service in dealers and full-time tech support, and the Klipsch come with a full warranty and have beautiful finishes on them, the DIY kits do not.  The DIY kits do offer great sound for the dollar, but they will not reward you at resale time like a Klipsch speaker will.

If I were to pick 1 brand and stay with it, like Eminence horn, horn driver, 15" driver and eminence crossover....would that help with proper matching?

[wvu80]

Im quickly seeing there is builders and there are buyers....perhaps I should be content with being a buyer! Lol.

 

 

Oh no you don't, my friend, you're not getting off the DIY bus that easy! 

 

I loved doing my three DIY builds.  I have NO woodworking skills, and I learned so much.  Those kits are a SUPER way to get into a DIY build, and if you have skills and knowledge you branch out from there into true speaker design if that's your thing.  My thing is high quality sound at a fraction of the cost of retail.  My research made me a lot smarter and I learned there are some things I was NOT going to be able to do, like box design and cross over design.

 

I actually was going to do exactly what you originally posted.  I looked at that exact same birch knock-down cab from PE that you listed.  The big problem was that it has no bracing, and it was not designed for home speaker use, it is a PA cab.  I had no way to cut out a front baffle so I could put a horn in.  Those DIY Soundgroup knock-down boxes are expertly designed and CNC cut.  The edges won't just fit, they match.  It will give you a perfectly flat surface so you can try your veneering skills.

 

Here is my Cheap Thrill 12" SEOS and $50 Celestion 15" woofer in the Man Cave.  I bought a $45 piece of 3/4" MDF and a guy built a box for me.  My 15" sub kit from PE is below the Cheap Thrill, and my CF-4 is to the right.  The $200 CT and the $2500 CF-4 (1994 retail, dual 12" woofs) VERY close in sound and SPL to each other, with the nod going to the CT in terms of mid-bass quality and is more efficient.  The CT also has wider horizontal dispersion, with the CF-4 having more beaming and a more narrow ideal listening position.

 

 

What is your budget, and where do you plan to put these?  Living room, home theater, what do you have in mind?  Will these be music or movie oriented?  FYI the Sentinel 15" kit I suggested is actually the upgraded version 2.  It has a larger 15" waveguide and reworked cross over.

Edited July 5, 2015 by wvu80

[philly0116]

 

Im quickly seeing there is builders and there are buyers....perhaps I should be content with being a buyer! Lol.

 

 

Oh no you don't, my friend, you're not getting off the DIY bus that easy! 

 

I loved doing my three DIY builds.  I have NO woodworking skills, and I learned so much.  Those kits are a SUPER way to get into a DIY build, and if you have skills and knowledge you branch out from there into true speaker design if that's your thing.  My thing is high quality sound at a fraction of the cost of retail.  My research made me a lot smarter and I learned there are some things I was NOT going to be able to do, like box design and cross over design.

 

I actually was going to do exactly what you originally posted.  I looked at that exact same birch knock-down cab from PE that you listed.  The big problem was that it has no bracing, and it was not designed for home speaker use, it is a PA cab.  I had no way to cut out a front baffle so I could put a horn in.  Those DIY Soundgroup knock-down boxes are expertly designed and CNC cut.  The edges won't just fit, they match.  It will give you a perfectly flat surface so you can try your veneering skills.

 

Here is my Cheap Thrill 12" SEOS and $50 Celestion 15" woofer in the Man Cave.  I bought a $45 piece of 3/4" MDF and a guy built a box for me.  My 15" sub kit from PE is below the Cheap Thrill, and my CF-4 is to the right.  The $200 CT and the $2500 CF-4 (1994 retail, dual 12" woofs) VERY close in sound and SPL to each other, with the nod going to the CT in terms of mid-bass quality and is more efficient.

 

IMG_4420.JPG

 

What is your budget, and where do you plan to put these?  Living room, home theater, what do you have in mind?  Will these be music or movie oriented?  FYI the Sentinel 15" kit I suggested is actually the upgraded version 2.  It has a larger 15" waveguide and reworked cross over.

 

Lol! I'm gonna build something....I actually intended on using the PE cab with a horn sitting on top and flipping the cabinet over where the woofer was higher. I don't want to end up with something that sounds like crap though! These are going to be in the living room rotation so aesthetics are fairly important. That's why I liked the idea of the PE cabs because they are birch, can be easily stained and would be about 40" tall to the top of the horn. This is my first DIY so $800-$1k would be tops on budget. 

Edited July 5, 2015 by philly0116

[wvu80]

This is my first DIY so $800-$1k would be tops on budget.

 

So $1K for the pair?  I would think you could put together some outstanding sound at $500 per speaker, and even at $400 per speakers, there are some other smaller kits with high quality components that fit that price range.

+++

 

.I actually intended on using the PE cab with a horn sitting on top and flipping the cabinet over where the woofer was higher. I don't want to end up with something that sounds like crap though!

 

These are going to be in the living room rotation so aesthetics are fairly important.

 

 

   Have you run that by the wife?  You want to turn the speaker box upside down and put a bare horn on top?  And aesthetics are important?  Frankly, I agree with you, I think that would look great. 

 

But your wife sounds MUCH more understanding than my wife! 

+++

 

I still like your ideas, but I really think the crossover design (lack of) is really going to ruin any kind of decent sound.  Maybe someone else can come up with a better idea than I had.  You might even be better off finding a Klipsch XO or a Dean G XO for one of the 2-way designs, and after you have your network find the drivers that fit the XO.  IMO the magic is in the crossovers.

 

And I would remind you, that Fusion 15 is a BIG speaker! (read, low WAF rating)

Edited July 5, 2015 by wvu80

[philly0116]

 

This is my first DIY so $800-$1k would be tops on budget.

 

So $1K for the pair?  I would think you could put together some outstanding sound at $500 per speaker, and even at $400 per speakers, there are some other smaller kits with high quality components that fit that price range.

+++

 

.I actually intended on using the PE cab with a horn sitting on top and flipping the cabinet over where the woofer was higher. I don't want to end up with something that sounds like crap though!

 

These are going to be in the living room rotation so aesthetics are fairly important.

 

 

   Have you run that by the wife?  You want to turn the speaker box upside down and put a bare horn on top?  And aesthetics are important?  Frankly, I agree with you, I think that would look great. 

 

But your wife sounds MUCH more understanding than my wife! 

+++

 

I still like your ideas, but I really think the crossover design (lack of) is really going to ruin any kind of decent sound.  Maybe someone else can come up with a better idea than I had.  And I would remind you, that Fusion 15 is a BIG speaker! (read, low WAF rating)

 

Thats the PE cabinet I found an image of on google. Who could argue with that look?! I will look long and hard at the Fusion 15.

[philly0116]

All this being said, I would of course build a top box to house the horn. The whole crossover thing has me twisted up though. If thats not right, none of its right!

Edited July 5, 2015 by philly0116

[wvu80]

Who could argue with that look?

 

The wife! 

+++

 

Edit:  I've been drooling over these, but at $500 it might shoot the budget.  I would start here and build around it. 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/157816-rf-7-point-to-point-soldered-crossovers-with-audiocap-ppt-thetas/

Edited July 5, 2015 by wvu80

[philly0116]

Modified consideration list:

 

http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-h2ea-2-cast-aluminum-exponential-horn-60x40-4-bolt--290-551

 

http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-psd-3006-16-2-titanium-compression-horn-driver-16-ohm-4-bolt--290-441

 

http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-delta-15lfa-15-low-frequency-driver--290-417

 

http://www.parts-express.com/pa-knock-down-trapezoid-plywood-speaker-cabinet-for-15-driver--245-326

 

http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-pxb2-800-2-way-speaker-crossover-board-800-hz--290-632

[philly0116]

 

Who could argue with that look?

 

The wife! 

+++

 

Edit:  I've been drooling over these, but at $500 it might shoot the budget.  I would start here and build around it. 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/157816-rf-7-point-to-point-soldered-crossovers-with-audiocap-ppt-thetas/

 

I have a pair of RF-7's those would go nicely in. Lol. 

[cradeldorf]

I like your 1st woofer choice, Same one I'm gonna go with. I wouldn't go with a store bought crossover as the crossover needs to be built after measurement of the entire system, preferably in it's final position in the room.

Edited July 8, 2015 by cradeldorf

[cradeldorf]

I have used most of these components or a similar one by the same manufacturer. All should perform well. My first concern is that the woofer you chose will probably not keep up with your horn. It is a very good woofer for it's price point but will not put out the db's that horn will. If you want to stick with Dayton the series II, or their professional version both will give you better output. Looks like a fun project. Others with more experience will chime in with more suggestions, I'm sure. Good luck with the project.

The 15" dayton series II woofer has a spl of 91 db the Dayton PA 380 that he posted has an SPL of 96? why would you say his choice would not keep up and then suggest a woofer that is 5 db's down from his choice? Also the series II woofer is only good to 1000 hz where the PA 380 is good to 3500hz?

[Arash]

Faital Pro 15PR400 in a BR box with a B&C DE250 behind a Seos12 or H290 horn. everything form PE I think will be under 600USD I'm checking with my wholesale account.

just my $0.02

Edited July 8, 2015 by Arash

[philly0116]

Faital Pro 15PR400 in a BR box with a B&C DE250 behind a Seos12 or H290 horn. everything form PE I think will be under 600USD I'm checking with my wholesale account.

just my $0.02

BR Box?