Klipsch subwoofer match for my system?

[derrickdj1]

The UM 18 in the 4 cu ft boxes are exceptional for HT.  The key is setup, DSP/PEQ to raise the bottom end.  All sealed enclosure have the same problem.  Sealed are better for extension but, you may need multiples.  The advantage of a reflex design is that it will be stronger down to tuning or greater than 15 Hz output.  After tuning, the port or reflex design drops off like a rock at 24 db per octave.  This kills extension.

 

The key to picking out which is best for your purpose:

Room Size

Wooferage goal

Available floor space

 

I use the UM 18's with success in a large space but, I have multiples.  The UM 18 is a beefy driver with low distortion and good power handling.

 

By definition, a sealed enclosure will have less ringing or resonance than a ported system.  For music lovers this can make a difference with kick drums and low bass that stays tighter longer in the sub passband.  Speaking of resonance, the system need not to be under or over damped.  A value of 0.7 should be a good number for HT and music.  A value oe 0.5 may favor music lovers but, there are always trade-offs.

Edited July 7, 2015 by derrickdj1

[Paducah Home Theater]

By definition, a sealed enclosure will have less ringing or resonance than a ported system.  For music lovers this can make a difference with kick drums and low bass that stays tighter longer in the sub passband.

I never noticed this until I was able to hear them back to back. Sealed was way more defined and tight. Wasn't really comparing apples to apples though.

Edited July 7, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[jason str]

 

By definition, a sealed enclosure will have less ringing or resonance than a ported system.  For music lovers this can make a difference with kick drums and low bass that stays tighter longer in the sub passband.

I never noticed this until I was able to hear them back to back. Sealed was way more defined and tight. Wasn't really comparing apples to apples though.

 

 

Much depends on the tuning on the port(s).

 

When you tune your cabinet for lower frequency response you lose lower midbass defenition.

 

Just another tradeoff of cabinet design.

[BATMAN5892]

Well I actually just picked up an Earthquake SuperNova.  I picked it up for $150. I'm not sure which one it is.   It's a 10" SuperNova and its an older model.  The MKIV and up have the series printed on the back; mine does not.  It does very well actually.  I'm very pleased with it.  In a larger room it might not perform very well, but now it certainly does the trick.  I think the MKIII has a heat sink and mine doesn't.  So I think it is either the MKI or MKII.  Either way, it's awesome.

Edited July 10, 2015 by MHarbour

[Guest srobak]

even after audyssey eq's these things are garbage. sorry. its the truth.

Sorry if that's what your ears tell you - but for some people's ears and budget lines as well as their types of music - it is just fine and does quite respectably. As I mentioned in my first post - if it was just music it might have been a significantly cheaper option, but as he is also wanting to do HT with it - that throws it out the window.

 

not sure who you are referring to but most who buy "lower end" 18's like what i have and dayton ref or ultimax usually spend less on amps. any who spend "bookoo"bucks on nicer drivers like uxl, or tc sounds usually buy much nicer amps. peavey, crown, qsc, and other "higher end" amps.

Like I said - a few people in various audio forums - including this one, avs and ak - plus some on fb.

 

not sure what is so funny. subs need power. an inuke 6000 dsp provies 3000 watts of rms power to my 4 18's. and they are flat to 8 hz in my room. feel free to watch my demo clip of book of eli i just added on youtube and you will see peaks of 121 db off of my throw away amp and measily avr power. have you ever been to someones house who has a 18" diy setup powered by any pro amp? if not id suggest trying to find someone in your area and go get your mind blown

Of course I have been to homes with multiple, high Xmax DIY's, enjoyed them thoroughly and did a few of my own. I don't need to watch your video of stuff that can't be heard on YT to know that even if you throw enough crap power at something that can handle it you can easily attain high spl.

 

that is if you think the sub-10 is cool anyways.

I never said anything about the sub-10. I did say that the sub-12 might have been a decent choice at a fraction of the cost if it was only being used for music. Considering it is -3 @ 24 and is tuned to 30 and has 650w behind it - it will easily accommodate most any genre of music - except for that one genre that nobody who takes music seriously actually listens to with any expectation of musicality. It might not hit 121 (does 117 on it's own) - but that still doesn't mean it's garbage.

 

Behringer has a comparative advantage with the I Nukes: they sell so many that, they can sell them cheaper.

You are carting before you horse. They sell so many because they are cheap - not the other way around. Again - there is a reason why it (and most everything else they manufacture) is so cheap. It isn't because they are good, and while contributory - the primary reason is not because they sell so many.  

 

I have own two crown amps, the 1500 and 2500 and returned them in favor of the Behringer amps.

If that's the case - then you are doing something seriously wrong. Especially if you were using them only for sub power - which if on an apples-to-apples configuration otherwise - should be practically indistinguishable (for the very same reason you can use class D's on subs in the first place) from each other. By the numbers the 2500 otherwise tars & feathers the Berry.

 

Should be down 10 dB @ 20 Hz or so in that 4 cubic foot cabinet in case anyone was interested.

-10 @ 20? That's just not an acceptable level for HT at all - and it is barely so for music. Geesh - that's going back into Sub-12 territory. Why waste all the time, money and effort of a DIY if that's all you are going to get out of it? Just get a couple of mid-level HSU's and enjoy -3 at 16, or even the R-115SW even though it can't get as far down despite costing the same as HSU.

[Scrappydue]

Sorry if that's what your ears tell you - but for some people's ears and budget lines as well as their types of music - it is just fine and does quite respectably. As I mentioned in my first post - if it was just music it might have been a significantly cheaper option, but as he is also wanting to do HT with it - that throws it out the window.

sorry but you are the ONLY person i know that DOESNT feel the same as me. 

 

Of course I have been to homes with multiple, high Xmax DIY's, enjoyed them thoroughly and did a few of my own. I don't need to watch your video of stuff that can't be heard on YT to know that even if you throw enough crap power at something that can handle it you can easily attain high spl.

it doesn't need to be heard. it was just so people could see how easily reference can be reached with the klipsch cinema products.

 

I never said anything about the sub-10. I did say that the sub-12 might have been a decent choice at a fraction of the cost if it was only being used for music. Considering it is -3 @ 24 and is tuned to 30 and has 650w behind it - it will easily accommodate most any genre of music - except for that one genre that nobody who takes music seriously actually listens to with any expectation of musicality. It might not hit 121 (does 117 on it's own) - but that still doesn't mean it's garbage.

spending even 199$ on a sub that plays from 24-40 is COMPLETE GARBAGE in my opinion. i mention this because we said it was muddy above 40 and you said it helps to cross it low so that doesn't happen. even though to me that means a sub isn't the slightest bit musical. but hey you can think what ever you would like.

 

Especially if you were using them only for sub power - which if on an apples-to-apples configuration otherwise - should be practically indistinguishable (for the very same reason you can use class D's on subs in the first place) from each other.

so if they were indistinguishable why would you wanna pay more for an amp with less DSP capability when DSP is VERY important with subwoofers? that would be just stupid.

 

 

that's going back into Sub-12 territory

if you think a sub-12 could compete with ANY of the budget 18" sealed builds, you are mistaken. 

[Paducah Home Theater]

Considering it is -3 @ 24

Klipsch measurements are in-room or something, the stated volume is louder and the extension is always lower than it really is. It's not really comparing apples to apples.

 

has 650w behind it

That's peak. Only 300 RMS. Which is still plenty for a 12, but still. It's not 650 watts. This is being intellectually dishonest if you're going to bash Behringer for not being truthful on their iNuke specs. An iNuke 6K can crank out about 10 times what the Sub-12 amp can.

 

You are carting before you horse. They sell so many because they are cheap - not the other way around. Again - there is a reason why it (and most everything else they manufacture) is so cheap. It isn't because they are good, and while contributory - the primary reason is not because they sell so many.

I mean, it's a class D switching amp... they're all "cheap", there's not much to them at all. If you pay a bunch for a class D amp that usually just means you're a brand fanboy and maybe like the looks of the other one better. I mean, even a Peavey IPR2 7500 weighs a massive 14 pounds. Just not much to them. One would think that somebody who is so adamant about how bad they are ought to be able to name something that they come up short on compared to other similar offerings, something different than pointing out the price tag and brand name.

 

-10 @ 20? That's just not an acceptable level for HT at all - and it is barely so for music. Geesh - that's going back into Sub-12 territory. Why waste all the time, money and effort of a DIY if that's all you are going to get out of it? Just get a couple of mid-level HSU's and enjoy -3 at 16, or even the R-115SW even though it can't get as far down despite costing the same as HSU.

A more appropriate phrasing of your question is why dink with sealed subs in home theater in general, period. All of them roll off sharper than ported boxes that are tuned low, at least until you get below the tuning frequency. It's intellectually dishonest to single out a couple of products and say they're inferior to these other ported products.

Edited July 13, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Guest srobak]

It is clear that you are not reading at all what I am writing, Scrappy... so - whatever. 

[Paducah Home Theater]

that's going back into Sub-12 territory

if you think a sub-12 could compete with ANY of the budget 18" sealed builds, you are mistaken.

I imagine the R-115SW runs all over the Sub-12 for home theater, yet I swapped out two of those for my iNuke / Ultimax setup.

[Scrappydue]

It is clear that you are not reading at all what I am writing, Scrappy... so - whatever.

lol what am I not reading? I read your whole posts about three times before I even responded. And even went back to where you mentioned sub-12 as you stated where I thought you said sub-10. Sooooo I don't get it? Lol your arguing stupid points that make no sense. And everyone is calling you out on it. It's ok. It happens.

[Paducah Home Theater]

Also many of these factory subs have dsps built into the amp. Its not comparing apples to apples by looking at the frequency response of a factory sub vs a raw driver when you have a blank slate of a real nice dsp on the Inukes where you can do whatever you want.

Edited July 13, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[wstrickland1]

I bought one of those $199 shipped Sub 12's and set it up in my bedroom w/ a pair of RB 35's and an older Pioneer VSX 1015 AVR for music only. I crossed at 50 hz and played around with placement. It's on point. Sorry but it is.

[Scrappydue]

I bought one of those $199 shipped Sub 12's and set it up in my bedroom w/ a pair of RB 35's and an older Pioneer VSX 1015 AVR for music only. I crossed at 50 hz and played around with placement. It's on point. Sorry but it is.

thats good. I just stated that spending 200$ on a sub to play from 50hz down to 30ish isn't something I would pay for. Glad you enjoy it though.

[Scrappydue]

Also many of these factory subs have dsps built into the amp. Its not comparing apples to apples by looking at the frequency response of a factory sub vs a raw driver when you have a blank slate of a real nice dsp on the Inukes where you can do whatever you want.

lot of people don't know that factory subs have dsp built in. Problem is it's a dsp for a room other than the owners. That's where the dsp comes in for the inukes. The capability of applying dsp in YOUR room is much superior than what any factory sub will give you. But hey behringer sucks. Crappy cheap power lol. Can't sound remotely descent.

[Paducah Home Theater]

I bought one of those $199 shipped Sub 12's and set it up in my bedroom w/ a pair of RB 35's and an older Pioneer VSX 1015 AVR for music only. I crossed at 50 hz and played around with placement. It's on point. Sorry but it is.

You can get some surprisingly wicked cool sounding bass in music from lots of cheap subs that are tuned around 30-35 hz. They struggle on the low end of that though and are kind of exaggerated at times.

Edited July 13, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[wstrickland1]

 

I bought one of those $199 shipped Sub 12's and set it up in my bedroom w/ a pair of RB 35's and an older Pioneer VSX 1015 AVR for music only. I crossed at 50 hz and played around with placement. It's on point. Sorry but it is.

You can get some surprisingly wicked cool sounding bass in music from lots of cheap subs that are tuned around 30-35 hz. They struggle on the low end of that though and are kind of exaggerated at times.

 

yeah, it's certainly not "perfect" but surprisingly good. It WILL boom like heII if you cross it too high for sure. I've had just about every Klipsch speaker including P39's and have liked them all but agree their subs aren't the best by a long shot. $199 delivered for that one is a great deal though if you know what you're buying.

[Scrappydue]

I bought one of those $199 shipped Sub 12's and set it up in my bedroom w/ a pair of RB 35's and an older Pioneer VSX 1015 AVR for music only. I crossed at 50 hz and played around with placement. It's on point. Sorry but it is.

You can get some surprisingly wicked cool sounding bass in music from lots of cheap subs that are tuned around 30-35 hz. They struggle on the low end of that though and are kind of exaggerated at times.

exaggerated is a perfect term. Sub-12 Jeremiah had reminded me of my car stereo days. That's not my goal anymore. Lol but I also have buddies that loved his sub-12 and hated his Svs. Goes to show how everyone has different preferences. I prefer as accurate as I can get it.

[Guest srobak]

lol what am I not reading? I read your whole posts about three times before I even responded. And even went back to where you mentioned sub-12 as you stated where I thought you said sub-10. Sooooo I don't get it? Lol your arguing stupid points that make no sense. And everyone is calling you out on it. It's ok. It happens.

*sigh* I know I'm going to regret this... and I really should just leave it where I did - at least in response to you - but apparently I must enjoy efforts of futility in engaging people who aren't keeping context or actually reading what I write or go off on their own tangents... so here goes...

1st off.... "You" != "Everyone"

 

it was just so people could see how easily reference can be reached with the klipsch cinema products.

3 things with that statement:

1> Was that ever in doubt? Nope. No one is ignoring the fact of the entire premise of the Cinema Line is that it can easily touch ref.

2> That being said - was the fact that the Cinema Line could read ref even a question in the entire thread? Nope.

3> Your DIY's - as awesome as they are - are not cinema products, klipsch or otherwise. Not only is it N/A to itself in it's own context - but it isn't even N/A to the N/A's in 1 & 2 above. :| Reads more like a bunch of wasted keystrokes just for the sake of typing and bragging. Pass.

 

spending even 199$ on a sub that plays from 24-40 is COMPLETE GARBAGE in my opinion. i mention this because we said it was muddy above 40 and you said it helps to cross it low so that doesn't happen. even though to me that means a sub isn't the slightest bit musical.

"We" did not say any such thing. You did, however. Now - what I actually said was that it does greatly help the performance of the Sub-12 if you have mains which can reach lower - so that the sub could be crossed lower. Lots of people do this... some even dedicating corners or walls of subs for a mere 20 to 40 Hz worth of spectrum, or even splitting a wider spectrum across multiple subs tasked with different ranges - so why it is suddenly taboo just because it is a Sub-12 simply makes no sense. Now - as far as muddiness goes - I simply do not share your opinion on that. In fact - it is pretty clean and tight all the way to 80, with it's worst spot between 30 and 35. Hardly in the range of mud and easily correctable with DSP. I am guessing you didn't hear it with one in the loop.

 

so if they were indistinguishable why would you wanna pay more for an amp with less DSP capability when DSP is VERY important with subwoofers? that would be just stupid.

The quality and reliability of components goes a long way to this - as far as not being "stupid". Again - remember that Berry is the Kraco/Koss/MTX/iPod Earbud of the pro audio world. Spend some time on some of the berry forums and read about popped caps, toasted diodes, scored chips, multiple transformer taps that suddenly develop paired or triplicated outputs vs. what they are supposed to be - and a host of other issues. Now - I am not saying this is with the Nukes specifically - but rather across a broad range of their products. There is a reason why you don't find their gear on the road or in any halfway serious permanent installation. When it comes to quality and reliability - QSC and Crown are just some of brands that have them beat hands-down for not much additional money. That peace of mind is why my road racks were full of Crowns and not Berries - and it is also why on my v-drum kit I am now running a Yammy board after having 3 different Berries give up the ghost after barely 2 years each. I am also still running at least one PB3 that is just about 20 years old and has more hours on it than my last 4 cars combined and it hasn't once given me a problem. That speaks volumes my man.... volumes.

Hell - I have 2 8-channel Berry boards sitting on a shelf right now collecting dust because a channel died, a pot is unbalanced or an input gate is on the fritz. I'll give them to you for free, if you want. I'll even throw in the German manuals if you like.

 

if you think a sub-12 could compete with ANY of the budget 18" sealed builds, you are mistaken.

If you think I ever once eluded to anything remotely close to that - then it is you that are mistaken... in addition to demonstrating that no - you in fact didn't read what I wrote.

Now - as that is handled...

 

Klipsch measurements are in-room or something. the stated volume is louder and the extension is always lower than it really is. It's not really comparing apples to apples.

Wasn't aware of that. Could have sworn I read otherwise, but I will re-research that. Thanks for that info - it does of course change things a bit. Thank you for being educational about it - far more effective than being dismissive. That being said - if you read the circumstances I was comparing above - it was a bit more apple & orange than apples - hence where I said "if only for music".

 

That's peak. Only 300 RMS. Which is still plenty for a 12, but still. It's not 650 watts. This is being intellectually dishonest if you're going to bash Behringer for not being truthful on their iNuke specs.

Well - I wasn't bashing Berry for dishonest specs - I simply said it does not hold the quality that other brands do and that I was surprised to see the guys who took home and HT audio seriously would consider it when people who take music and audio seriously & for a living do not. It just doesn't compute to me. Powering some sweet DIY or even factory passive subs with a Berry to me is like bringing an Impala to the Nurburgring.

Yeah the 300rms/650dynamic peak is plenty for a sub - and it is more than enough for one that will only be doing music and not so much in the way of LFE. Personally I would never consider a Sub-12 for HT as a boxed solution. Only a fool would do that. Much better to consider SVS, HSU or DIY (whilst including serious power).

 

I mean, it's a class D switching amp... they're all "cheap", there's not much to them at all. If you pay a bunch for a class D amp that usually just means you're a brand fanboy and maybe like the looks of the other one better. I mean, even a Peavey IPR2 7500 weighs a massive 14 pounds. Just not much to them. One would think that somebody who is so adamant about how bad they are ought to be able to name something that they come up short on compared to other similar offerings, something different than pointing out the price tag and brand name.

See my comments above to Scrappy for points. Past that - I guess I must apologize. I thought it would be on-par with being able to say how shyte Blose is without having to go into the nitty gritty details. Because while Berry may not be in that frame of knowledge here on the klipsch forums and a couple other spots - it is in the pro audio realm.

Edited July 14, 2015 by srobak

[Guest srobak]

I imagine the R-115SW runs all over the Sub-12 for home theater,

Of course it does.... -3 @18 alone shows that... not to mention all the other goodies. And one should expect it to do so. Completely different animal and far more respectable for HT.

yet I swapped out two of those for my iNuke / Ultimax setup.

Not totally surprising - there is _always_ something better. To that effect - I think a different amp would take it up another notch for sure.

[Guest srobak]

lot of people don't know that factory subs have dsp built in. Problem is it's a dsp for a room other than the owners. That's where the dsp comes in for the inukes. The capability of applying dsp in YOUR room is much superior than what any factory sub will give you. But hey behringer sucks. Crappy cheap power lol. Can't sound remotely descent.

Using an outboard DSP with a notably better amp will yield even better results still. As I said in another post - there is always better. But just as you would not consider a Sub-12 for music-only - I would not consider a berry for powering halfway serious subs. I can't demonstrate further correlation than that. *shrugs* That's all I got.