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Arash

Nonprofit project - Poor man's hi-eff horn speaker

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Hello everybody, :)

 

I'm submitting this thread hoping to hear your idea about what we're gonna do. long story short I've been asked for affordable good-sounding speakers for countless of times here in Iran so I thought maybe I can donate something to music lovers here. I was originally born in a family of low income and I know what it's like to live in a freaking third world country with a average salary of 200USD/month and looking enviously to commercial speakers that cost an arm an a leg :( I thought I can use our equipments and connections to build something that is worth the money. the plan is built to speakers both two ways. one with 12" woofer and 1" CD and horn and the other with 15" woofer and 1.4" CD and horn. I can buy CW1526C and CW1228 from Bob but buying things from US will make the cost double or triple! instead I'm gonna use Faitalpro stuff. I really like them. I've worked with all these driver particularly and I know many of you are using other combinations I may not have been heard yet so please lemme know what you think :)

 

 

 

1

Faitalpro 12PR300 12" woofer + Selenium D220ti + Faital Pro LTH102 Elliptical Tractrix Horn

it's pretty the same of Bob's CS-1T but the woofer differs. 12PR300 will go down to 50hz -3d ported.

 

 

 

2

Faitalpro 15PR400 15" woofer + Faitalpro HF140 + Faitalpro LTH142 Elliptical Tractrix horn or 18sound XT1464

15PR400 is a low fs and low mms driver capable of delivering real articulated bass. I really like this woofer. it seems Alura speaker uses this woofer. could be used down to f3 38hz in a ~190l ported cabinet. this speaker sure reminisces Bob's Style D Cornscala.

 

I like XT1464 more than LTH142.

I also would like to place the horn on top of bassbin not into it. something like this:

 

 

post-41711-0-46460000-1436722414_thumb.j

 

any idea is much appreciated :)

Edited by Arash

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another issue itching mind mind is that non-Ti CDs sound smoother to my ear so I tend more toward polymers diaphragms. 

 

HF140 (Titanium) response:

post-41711-0-00780000-1436723616_thumb.g

 

HF 144 (Ketone polymer):

post-41711-0-04900000-1436723756_thumb.g

 

HF 146 (Ketone polymer):

post-41711-0-56020000-1436723768_thumb.g

 

the low end of all three drivers look like the same. HF144 seems more linear. HF140 have a little bit better top end but there is also a deep/hump around 15Khz. I don't see a point why wouldn't I use HF144 over HF140. any idea?

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Arash,

This is a great idea! Don't know if you have ever read about Zilch's Econowave, but making something more accessible is very commendable. Dave Harris of Fastlane Audio has also done some cool projects.

Bruce

Edited by Marvel
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Arash,

This is a great idea! Don't know if you have ever read about Zilch's Econowave, but making something more accessible is very commendable. Dave Harris of Fastlane Audio has also done some cool projects.

Bruce

 

thanks Bruce for the input

actually I've read about Econowave AFAIK it uses a DSP and active Xover and is bi-amped. I've worked with Econowave horn (Dayton replica) it's a nice-sounding horn. I like Seos12 a little bit more. I think elliptical tractrix horns are overall better and could be used some hundred hz lower.

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Hi Arash, can you clarify a couple of things for me?  I have done some low-cost DIY and if you can support the DIY community in your country, that is great!   :emotion-21:

 

I have followed some of your other posts, and I've seen you do great work.  I thought you were a speaker maker in Iran.  Do you make speakers for a living?  If not, are your speakers for yourself or others?

 

If you want to make money, I have no problem with that, as everybody must do something to support himself.  I feel I can give you better advice on DIY if I understand better what your speaker building goals are.  :)

+++

 

Edit:  Here is the point I am trying to make.  If you want a DIY speaker with the large horn on top and high quality components, that does not seem "poor man" speakers to me.  Those would still cost a lot of money, and I apologize I don't know what amount of money would be excessive in your country.

 

Here is a link to some truly low cost speakers (us $200) that have an outstanding sound, at least as good as my $2,500 (when new in 1994) Klipsch CF-4 speakers.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=221.0

 

Cheap Thrill DIY speaker w/15" woofer top left, Dayton Audio Reference 15" DIY sub underneath, Klipsch CF-4 (dual 12" woofers) on right.

 

post-58280-0-86460000-1436749425_thumb.j

post-58280-0-90300000-1436749440_thumb.j

Edited by wvu80
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Only certain variants of the econowave were DSP based (such as the gainphile one, .. I've messed around with active econowaves too).t. More often than not, they were designed to use passive crossovers. The "textbook" econowave crossovers were of two types: the low efficiency xover (meant for econowaving with low eff. woofers), and the high efficiency xover (less attenuation of the HF section). Most econowaves use a constant directivity waveguide of some sort, aiming for constant directivity

 

You might find this post useful:

 

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1856214&postcount=228

 

Lastly, if you can source this QSC waveguide, you will find it superior to the smaller pyle, dayton etc clones of the classic JBL CD waveguide

http://www.parts-express.com/qsc-pl-000446gp-replacement-waveguide-horn-for-hpr152i-2-bolt--245-625

Edited by zobsky
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Hi Arash, can you clarify a couple of things for me?  I have done some low-cost DIY and if you can support the DIY community in your country, that is great!   :emotion-21:

 

I have followed some of your other posts, and I've seen you do great work.  I thought you were a speaker maker in Iran.  Do you make speakers for a living?  If not, are your speakers for yourself or others?

 

If you want to make money, I have no problem with that, as everybody must do something to support himself.  I feel I can give you better advice on DIY if I understand better what your speaker building goals are.  :)

+++

 

Edit:  Here is the point I am trying to make.  If you want a DIY speaker with the large horn on top and high quality components, that does not seem "poor man" speakers to me.  Those would still cost a lot of money, and I apologize I don't know what amount of money would be excessive in your country.

 

Here is a link to some truly low cost speakers (us $200) that have an outstanding sound, at least as good as my $2,500 (when new in 1994) Klipsch CF-4 speakers.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=221.0

 

Cheap Thrill DIY speaker w/15" woofer top left, Dayton Audio Reference 15" DIY sub underneath, Klipsch CF-4 (dual 12" woofers) on right.

 

attachicon.gifIMG_4420.JPG

attachicon.gifIMG_4179.JPG

 

Hi,

 

for sure. actually we are running the only speaker manufacturing group in Iran. our main activity is to build loudspeakers for various of applications. for cinemas, theaters, religious places sound enforcement, sport clubs, wedding ceremonies, you name it. we also build horn speakers as a hobby.

actually we do make money from our main activity. we don't need to build hi-fi speakers and sell for money unless some guy with a big pocket comes to us and asks to build him something probably no one else in Iran is not qualified. so we do it. but intention for this project is not money.

you know people here usually spend ~2-3k on speakers like Focal, Elac, Dynaudio, etc... the total cost of parts of 15"/1.4" speaker I listed above considering BB plywood from Finland would be something around 2K normally. 

 

a pair 15PR400 : $518

a pair HF140 : $620

a pair LTH142 : $120

crossover parts : $200

BB plywood cabinet, CNC machined : ~$400

screws, damping, painting, binding post, wiring,... : $100

total: ~1950USD

 

not mentioning the time I'm putting in cutting and building the cabinet and measurement this speaker should cots something around 2K for a guy in Iran. needless to say if one wants to buy all part from US it would cost him at least twice.

I intent to let a pair of this speaker (assembled and tested) go for 1K :) it still costs half of a Focal 826 here so that's why I think everyone can afford it. the other model with 12" woofer will be around 500 bucks or even less.

I have DNA-360 here but I think elliptical horns are superior to Seos12.

I can build a two way horn speaker for less than 500USD but I just don't want to build something that will keep the owner busy for a long time.

 

Arash,

Edited by Arash

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Only certain variants of the econowave were DSP based (such as the gainphile one, .. I've messed around with active econowaves too).t. More often than not, they were designed to use passive crossovers. The "textbook" econowave crossovers were of two types: the low efficiency xover (meant for econowaving with low eff. woofers), and the high efficiency xover (less attenuation of the HF section). Most econowaves use a constant directivity waveguide of some sort, aiming for constant directivity

 

You might find this post useful:

 

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1856214&postcount=228

 

Lastly, if you can source this QSC waveguide, you will find it superior to the smaller pyle, dayton etc clones of the classic JBL CD waveguide

http://www.parts-express.com/qsc-pl-000446gp-replacement-waveguide-horn-for-hpr152i-2-bolt--245-625

 

thanks for the tips.

I think Econowave is a great speaker for a little money

I have QSC horn in my personal treasure I bought from PE but that's not an option as I can't buy them for dealer price. all these effort is because we have access to European brands for dealer's price  :)

Edited by Arash

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I had a similar idea for friends systems. A more reasonably priced 2-way.

 

I thought having this http://www.horns-diy.pl/e-oswg-15.html

You can put jbl's or seleniums you have as you get a good price

 

Bass solution, would be ported with appropiate cabinet size and a good matching driver.

 

add x numbers of subwoofer :)

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I guess Radian 745beryllium could be a very good candidate for the e-oswg-15.

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I had a similar idea for friends systems. A more reasonably priced 2-way.

 

I thought having this http://www.horns-diy.pl/e-oswg-15.html

You can put jbl's or seleniums you have as you get a good price

 

Bass solution, would be ported with appropiate cabinet size and a good matching driver.

 

add x numbers of subwoofer :)

 

thanks Okan for the idea

actually I've worked with many horns from Seos12, Seos18, QSC, H290, JMLC, Stereolab tractrix,... most of which have high cf. I think elliptical LTH142 or 18sound XT1464 are better choice many folk are missing here. good horizontal to vertical dispersion angle. lower cf.

 

I guess Radian 745beryllium could be a very good candidate for the e-oswg-15.

 

at 700SD/each that couldn't be an option in this project. Faitalpro driver are really top-notch imo

Edited by Arash

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I'm still eager to hear your opinions about HF144 and HF146 with Ketone polymer diaphragm :) I wish there was a 2" elliptical horn so I could use HF200 while I know it's actually 1.4" driver with a 2" exit. is there any other horn except Elliptrac? I can build something similar to Elliptrac I've done it before but the cost...

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I have both HF200 and HF204 (HF140 and HF144 with 2" adaptor).

They sound differently, for 2-way 204/144 is better, HF200/140 lacks some brightness.

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I use HF146 (the successor to HF144)  with the XT1464 waveguide. I don't have any complaints at all. For what it's worth, the combination doesn't go to to 20 KHz but doesn't lack treble or sound rolled off, isn't annoying, shrill, peaky etc so I'm not concerned. It is useable as low as 550 - 600 Hz for home listening levels, probably at 800 Hz or above for higher power applications.

Edited by zobsky
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I have both HF200 and HF204 (HF140 and HF144 with 2" adaptor).

They sound differently, for 2-way 204/144 is better, HF200/140 lacks some brightness.

 

 

I do prefer HF144 and HF146 over HF140. you know Titanium compression driver sound like they have more jump factor (wow factor or whatever you call it) but will make me wanting to turn the music off and leave but the non-Titanium drivers (like DE250) are easier to ear

I use HF146 (the successor to HF144)  with the XT1464 waveguide. I don't have any complaints at all. For what it's worth, the combination doesn't go to to 20 KHz but doesn't lack treble or sound rolled off, isn't annoying, shrill, peaky etc so I'm not concerned. It is useable as low as 550 - 600 Hz for home listening levels, probably at 800 Hz or above for higher power applications.

 

thanks for the idea. I wish you could come up with a picture I like to see your speaker

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any idea about HF140 and HF146? HF140 seems to have a hump at ~15khz which may add some exaggerated sparkle to the top end and will probably make the listener feel it sounds better than HF146. has anyone any experience about it?

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you could shave off a lot of money if you gave up the horn for a Karlson K-Tube make the tube ID the same as the driver exit dia. I prefer by a wide margin the double cutaway version parallel to the floor centred at seated ear level aimed at the centre position. Costs almost nothing you can easily time align the diaphragm with your woofer the tube is a 1/4 wave device so it does not need to be very long. Fast easy simple to make from paper to experiment with. The picture posted shows both double cutaway and single cutaway. I position the double cutaway so the open slot is vertical. Hope this is of interest. Best of luck with your project. I have also attached a photo of a single cutaway K-Tube on one of my EV DH1A compression drives that is a 2" ID tube about 5.5" long you can see the thin twist tie wire used as a keeper hoop to insure the paper tube stays round when the profile is cut. As I mentioned I prefer the double cutaway but I thought this picture would help. I also have my nose cups removed now so the driver is now a 1.4" exit not the nomimal 2" with the extender nose cup installed.

post-44375-0-19420000-1436997338_thumb.j

post-44375-0-68580000-1436999127_thumb.j

Edited by moray james

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Moray's k-tubes intrigued me and I have tried a very very simple set with my spare HF200. Too soon for conclusions, but sound has seemed to have both (good) features of horns (quick, detail) and direct radiators (hi-fi softness as opposite to PA power). 

. . 

Edited by Mariusz_

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Guest David H

Would it not be best to choose a woofer that can extend to 1k +?

 

This give you a large selection of wave guides and drivers to choose from, including 1 inch drivers.

 

The Drift and Econowaves,  I experimented with were quite good.

 

Dave

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