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Power needs of Heritage series speakers


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I just finished dinner and wanted to see what's going on before shutting down for the evening.  Imagine my surprise at seeing this new section!!!  My thanks to Chad for getting this up on here.  I'm sure the positive contributions of this section will devolve upon you!

 

I'll save discussion of the excellent sonic synergy between tube amps and Klipsch speakers for another thread.  First, I want to stress that Heritage series speakers need little power to provide very loud listening levels.  Check out volume 16, #1 of Dope from Hope:

 

http://www.klipsch.com/Education/dope-from-hope

 

The numbers quoted for the lower listening levels are not an exaggeration at all.  And this is exactly why Heritage series speakers can be used with very low power tube amps including SETs.  I've mentioned in other posts that I have guys running Cornwalls with as little as 1/3 wpc in small to moderate sized rooms, and the amps don't even get close to clipping.  La Scalas and Belles work even better under similar conditions.

 

I know there are forum members who are using low power tube amps with CWs and other Heritage series speakers, and would appreciate their getting on here and discussing why they prefer the sound of tube electronics to solid state.

 

Maynard

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  ... why they prefer the sound of tube electronics to solid state

 

Congrats on getting the tube section!

 

Also, thanks for all the Dope from Hopes.

 

I never had audiophile tube amps, but did have vintage and inexpensive ones and found them warmer sounding (with JBL models and Klipschorns) that my later solid state amps.   Particularly nice sounding tube models were two Dyna Mark IV (40 watt) mono amps, and two McIntosh 40 watt mono amps a friend loaned me.  The Mcintoshes didn't really sound better than the Dynas, even though the Dynas had several times the harmonic distortion on the low and high ends.  I never had other kinds of distortion measured, although I recall PWK saying TIM was important.  Most of my later solid state amps sounded harsher and harder.  The only one to come close was a Luxman SS.  My current SS NADs are not quite as nice sounding as the SS Luxman, and the Luxman wasn't as good as the two tube models.  I think they used EL 34s (?) or some such, and I also remember ECC83s -- or were those in the pre-amp?

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Yea Chad!  Yea Maynard!  Love it.  I have slowly but surely been moving away from SS to glass....although, must admit, I still like (and play), my vintage Pioneer SX receivers, and newly discovered HK-730's.

 

Tubes are, to me, a challenge, and that's what draws me to them.  Meaning, there are so many different configurations, types, etc, etc, that all of the possibilities really keep me interested.  Not to mention, they look pretty cool too....

 

Once again, thanks Maynard and Chad.  This should be fun.

 

Jim

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First, I want to stress that Heritage series speakers need little power to provide very loud listening levels.  Check out volume 16, #1 of Dope from Hope:

 

http://www.klipsch.com/Education/dope-from-hope

 

The numbers quoted for the lower listening levels are not an exaggeration at all.  And this is exactly why Heritage series speakers can be used with very low power tube amps including SETs.  I've mentioned in other posts that I have guys running Cornwalls with as little as 1/3 wpc in small to moderate sized rooms, and the amps don't even get close to clipping.  La Scalas and Belles work even better under similar conditions.

 

I know there are forum members who are using low power tube amps with CWs and other Heritage series speakers, and would appreciate their getting on here and discussing why they prefer the sound of tube electronics to solid state.

 

Maynard

 

 

I had clipped this table from the Dope from Hope for a power discussion in another thread and would seem to also fit here. If people can quickly see the visual they may be more inclined to read the entire article.

 

 

 

 

 

AMPLIFIER RATINGS TO DRIVE KLIPSCH SYSTEMS_table Page_2.jpg

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Well, this is now a useful place to mention a possible (but very pricey) answer to the conundrum of finding modern, up-to-date tube amplification for high-efficiency Klipsch that gets past noise problems due to gain-matching issues!  Trying to match separate pre's and amplifiers to by-pass those is not easy!  Yet, 40-yr.-old Scott and Fisher integrated amplifiers are dead silent on K-horns!

 

A few years ago, a forum member who rarely posts embarked on a project to purchase a new pair of Klipschorns.  To get high quality, nearly silent electronics, he searched out the VAC Sigma 160i.  http://www.vac-amps.com/productPages/Sigma160i.html.  The KT-88 OP tubes deliver 85 w/channel.

 

I understand he's pleased with both the sound quality and the near absence of electronic noise.  I believe it can handle MC as well as MM carts, a huge advantage.  Looks nice, too.  The only possible problem is I understand the list price is around $10K.

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Well, this is now a useful place to mention a possible (but very pricey) answer to the conundrum of finding modern, up-to-date tube amplification for high-efficiency Klipsch that gets past noise problems due to gain-matching issues!  Trying to match separate pre's and amplifiers to by-pass those is not easy!  Yet, 40-yr.-old Scott and Fisher integrated amplifiers are dead silent on K-horns!

 

A few years ago, a forum member who rarely posts embarked on a project to purchase a new pair of Klipschorns.  To get high quality, nearly silent electronics, he searched out the VAC Sigma 160i.  http://www.vac-amps.com/productPages/Sigma160i.html.  The KT-88 OP tubes deliver 85 w/channel.

 

I understand he's pleased with both the sound quality and the near absence of electronic noise.  I believe it can handle MC as well as MM carts, a huge advantage.  Looks nice, too.  The only possible problem is I understand the list price is around $10K.

Very nice looking indeed, MC and balanced as options. Hmmmm

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It's nice to see things getting off to a good start here.  

Gary, what makes you think that your Mac and Dynaco amps weren't audiophile type amps?  And, as far as the issue of distortion goes, never look at the numbers until after you have listened.  SETs are known to have, in some cases, fairly high 2nd harmonic distortion yet many find their sound to be the best available (especially with horn type speakers which, as we all know, don't mask things very well).  And you are correct about the tubes- the EL34s are the output tubes, and the ECC83s are in the preamp section.

Larry, gain matching is an issue with any kind of amp, and not just tubes.  One doesn't need to come even remotely close to spending $10k to get a modern, quiet, amp (I believe some forum members have said that the amps Justin sells are dead silent).  If I recall correctly, Marty said that the "Little Gem" which he built for around $250 is dead silent also.  In fact, the noisiest amps I encounter are solid state ( as one example, the guy down the road has a Krell monster which, when connected to his CWs, generates so much hiss that it's audible outside his listening room- and it is operating within spec).    

I hope the other forum guys who use tubes will start participating here.  You don't need to be involved with the technical side of tube amps, so start posting about why you use tubes with your Klipsch speakers!  And for those who are curious about using tubes, start asking as many questions as you wish.    This section is neither about me, nor for me and I don't want to go the route of some of the guys on other forums who try to jump in and answer every question that comes up.  

Maynard

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Guest thesloth

There are several things plaguing the tube scene from my point of view.

 

First, the cheap stuff. A lot of people don't want to spend a lot of money so they end up buying amps from China that are limited by several factors. Most of the schematics I see looks like they are just guessing on the exact values for components. Either they can't do math correctly or they just don't understand how to competently design tube gear. Usually the transformers are tiny and limit bandwidth. Layout/wiring is poor so there is hum/noise.

 

Second, the expensive stuff. I see WAY to many "designers" that do nothing more then polish turds and then charge an arm and a leg. Basically just old topologies like the Dyna MK-III cloned with "boutique" components. A lot of times even very expensive amps will exhibit hum/noise on efficient speakers.

 

 

Hopefully this new section will allow a lot of smoke to be let out of tubes. People can get informed on what to buy and what not to buy. What works and what doesn't work. I know Maynard and some others on here are intelligent and willing to share their knowledge, take advantage of it. I know I don't mind sharing what I know.

 

One last thing, I have spoken with Maynard about this and would like to know what others think......especially the ones that do not own any tube gear and would like to. I think it would be a fun excersise to as a community design an amplifier SPECIFICALLY for Klipsch speakers.

 

Possible Design Goals:

 

1) Inexpensive

2) Quiet

3) Use readily available, current production tubes.

4) Fully ingegrated, line level input

 

 

Suggest a topology. I know I have a couple kicking around........just not sure which one would be best. Single ended? Push-Pull? 

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One last thing, I have spoken with Maynard about this and would like to know what others think......especially the ones that do not own any tube gear and would like to. I think it would be a fun excersise to as a community design an amplifier SPECIFICALLY for Klipsch speakers.   Possible Design Goals:   1) Inexpensive 2) Quiet 3) Use readily available, current production tubes. 4) Fully ingegrated, line level input

 

This does sound like an interesting exercise, and I would be happy to keep up with the thread as it progresses.  I'm not particularly circuitry savvy, so I wouldn't be able to contribute there, but I have been in the software quality assurance field for many years, so I have that somewhat annoying tendency to question decisions, play the Devil's Advocate....and so on.  So, having said that, here's a few comments regarding your design goals above....Don't take it personally, just remember that I'm a tester at heart, and therefore a pain in the *** to designers and developers.....

 

1)  Inexpensive - As inexpensive as is reasonable while maintaining quality.  This should be quantified within specific cost parameters, $400-$800, $500-$1000, etc.

 

2) Quiet - As quiet as possible given the design.  Considering the efficiency of most Klipsch speakers, what would be the minimum/maximum THD or other data point?

 

3) Use readily available, current production tubes.- Readily available yes, "current" production.....ummm, maybe.  There are still boatloads of vintage tubes out there that are readily available, and that outperform by a wide margin "current" production tubes.  This certainly links to the cost aspect, but based on the design, may be a wash considering the quality factor...

 

4)Fully integrated, line level input - Again, this needs to be quantified as to what exactly this includes.

 

Let me add one more thought...What designs that are already in use have been shown to perform well with Klipsch speakers?  (This is a strictly rhetorical question...)  And yes, this may involve personal preference, understood, but hey, cloning a McIntosh design with good quality components might not be all bad....

 

So, again, I'm happy to jump in and be a pain whenever you would like.   :emotion-14:  :emotion-19:

 

Jim

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The wife and i run KT88 based Tubers.

Never Discount the "Imports" China has got their Chit together.

My guy "Primeamp" on the Bay has sold me at least 6 Amps over the years.

Like PA tells me, Mark we have two Billion people here, if my Amps are Chit, someone will kill my family. 

post-57941-0-52220000-1438096523_thumb.j

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Larry, gain matching is an issue with any kind of amp, and not just tubes.  One doesn't need to come even remotely close to spending $10k to get a modern, quiet, amp (I believe some forum members have said that the amps Justin sells are dead silent).  If I recall correctly, Marty said that the "Little Gem" which he built for around $250 is dead silent also.  In fact, the noisiest amps I encounter are solid state ( as one example, the guy down the road has a Krell monster which, when connected to his CWs, generates so much hiss that it's audible outside his listening room- and it is operating within spec). 
Although you seem to be speaking of noise from an amp by itself, that's not where the noise comes from.  Rather, audible noise usually comes from adverse gain-matching, as between a preamp and amplifier units.  Sure, almost any amp will be dead silent with only a speaker connected.

 

I would have to know what pre-amp, and which amplifiers with what gain, are involved.  Statements that a given amplifier is very quiet don't mean anything to me.  A particular combination of preamp and a "silent" amp can be noisy as heck. 

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The wife and i run KT88 based Tubers.

Never Discount the "Imports" China has got their Chit together.

My guy "Primeamp" on the Bay has sold me at least 6 Amps over the years.

Like PA tells me, Mark we have two Billion people here, if my Amps are Chit, someone will kill my family. 

Have to say, I am particularly fond of that vintage desk....brings back lots of memories....

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The wife and i run KT88 based Tubers.

Never Discount the "Imports" China has got their Chit together.

My guy "Primeamp" on the Bay has sold me at least 6 Amps over the years.

Like PA tells me, Mark we have two Billion people here, if my Amps are Chit, someone will kill my family. 

Have to say, I am particularly fond of that vintage desk....brings back lots of memories....

 

Aerojet surplus sales just a few miles away, if you know this desk, you sir, have some time at one, my respect.

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Larry, gain matching is an issue with any kind of amp, and not just tubes.  One doesn't need to come even remotely close to spending $10k to get a modern, quiet, amp (I believe some forum members have said that the amps Justin sells are dead silent). 
I forgot to add that I believe that integrated amps are near-silent, so indeed one only needs to spend $500 - $1,000 to get a refurbished Scott or Fisher integrated.  I was pointing to an expensive example of a current model of tube integrated.  I know that's well beyond the interest of most members of the forum, but I thought I'd mention it.
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