richieb Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I am wondering about converting my current KHorns to a 2 way design to somehwat replicate a lesser Jubilee but extract the wider dispersion and less distortion of a much larger mid horn in a 2 way concept. My KHorns are already modded with Fastlane top hat and ALK extreme slope xovers AP12 and ES5800. The xovers have provision for converting to 2 way so my question is what horn/driver combination would work both accoustically and fitment wise to install on top of the KHorn bass bin. Would the stock k55 driver work with a specific mid horn or is a new driver mandated? Am I nuts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Chi-town Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Isnt everyone on this forum nuts? John 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 you need to keep in mind that a khorn is getting into the soup at 350Hz so a large horn would be required to make it work. Members here have installed larger horns on top of Khorn bass bins. Check out the archives. A K402 could get it done. Lets see if current owners of such modded rigs will come forth with their experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Isnt everyone on this forum nuts? John Point well taken 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 So Moray the 402 is the horn needed? Do you know offhand if it will fit atop the bass bin? Is it compatible with the K55? Will the K55 go high enough or is that a function of the horn/driver combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I'd love to have a klipschorn bass bin/402 configuration... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The K55 starts dropping out at around 6K Hz I believe. You will need a different driver. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinsweber Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 AP12 Eliptrac and B&C DE85 or better yet DE750. Not quit the same level of highs but incredible... I did a La Scala bass bin with Eliptrac and DE750... really one of the best sounding speakers Ive done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 You need a horn that has completely taken over by 400Hz to go with a KHorn bass bin. The K55 is not 2" which is what the 402 horn requires. You will need one heck of a driver to cover all that you are asking it do. How about a coax driver on the mid/high freq horn? I know BMS makes the 4592 coax. I think maybe B and C makes one also but I don't know the model. I tried the BMS 4592 coax on an eliptrac horn and did not care for it and went back to a separate tweeter. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) A digital active crossover (2 in, 4 out) like a EV Dx38 could be used to bi-amp, cross-over, and EQ a K-402 plus a good full-range compression driver. I don't really recommend miniDSP or the Behringer DCX2496 lowest cost units because of noise (the miniDSP) and SQ (the DCX2496) issues, respectively. You could use a Faital Pro HF200 series driver or something a bit more pricier, like a TAD 4001 or 4002, or Be diaphragm-converted JBL or Altec/GPA compression driver--which are all 2" compression drivers. The 1" compression drivers (like the K55) won't really cover that wide range. The digital active crossover is required to compensate for the K-402 controlled directivity horn droop vs. frequency, to tame the Khorn bass bin frequency response peaks in the 100-250 Hz region, and most importantly, to correct the time delay between the K-402/compression driver and the bass bin. You will need to fire up the freeware REW or True RTA, etc. with a calibration microphone, like a UMIK-1 and a laptop/computer to get everything dialed in properly. Then the result will sound much like a Jubilee. I don't recommend lower-cost approaches or use of passive crossovers to do this. Chris Edited August 3, 2015 by Chris A 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I don't think I have a picture of it....but Rigma put his 402's atop his Khorns while he was making his bass bins. I recall it looked a bit silly but I also recall he said it sounded pretty decent. Could someone get by with the 510 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) On 8/3/2015 at 6:11 AM, Coytee said: Could someone get by with the 510 ? I wouldn't try it with Khorn bass bins, but you can do it with Jub bass bins. There is a bit of a polar mismatch between K-510s and a Jub bass bin (KPT-KHJ-LF) when crossing at 600 Hz or higher. The K-510 doesn't do so well crossing much lower - as it is approaching the point of losing both its vertical and horizontal pattern control below about 500 Hz. The Khorn bass bin has a hard time crossing above 400 Hz, and it really needs EQ boost/smoothing to do it well up to that point. Chris Edited October 16, 2018 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Well, I guess that doesn't look too much more awkward than the 402 sitting atop a LaScala... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 It would help if the Khorn bass bin was in a false corner so that it could be pulled forward a bit in that picture, since the ceiling line comes down to the top of the K-402. Also it helps to be able to line up the bass bin centerline lined up with the K-402's centerline, I've found.. I'm sure that rigma was just listening temporarily while he was building the Jub bass bins, and that shot was taken to document that trial. I remember him saying that it sounded really good. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 All great input guys, thanks. Man the 402 looks massive and dwarfs the bass bin, no matter how it may sound it sure looks odd. And it seems the 510/KHorn bin aren't compatible. My Fastlane top hat uses a much larger horn than stock (bought the speakers from original owner and not sure what horn is used. There is a photo of my speakers as they were being restored by Dave which shows the mid horn, maybe someone can identify? Original owner implied the horn was only one or two Dave specially designed for a KHorn restoration) With what has already been accomplished with my modded Horns leaving well enough alone might be the most practical. They sound stunning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) Man the 402 looks massive It's the mouth size of the K-402 that makes that horn sound so good. The K-510 is much smaller, and it does a great job, but it can't close the gap with a Khorn bass bin, I'm afraid to say. The K-402 was designed by Roy after he did the K-510 to take advantage of the profile that he pioneered in the K-510: the K-402 was the horn that resulted when he designed a full range horn with that profile that would go below 500 Hz and hold its polars constant. You've got to hear a pair to understand why they are so sought after. See my profile for a pair of Jubilees integrated into the corners of the room with tapped horn subs behind them, a 3-way center JuBelle, and surround bi-amped Cornwalls. Chris Edited August 3, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fjd Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) All great input guys, thanks. Man the 402 looks massive and dwarfs the bass bin, no matter how it may sound it sure looks odd. And it seems the 510/KHorn bin aren't compatible. My Fastlane top hat uses a much larger horn than stock (bought the speakers from original owner and not sure what horn is used. There is a photo of my speakers as they were being restored by Dave which shows the mid horn, maybe someone can identify? Original owner implied the horn was only one or two Dave specially designed for a KHorn restoration) With what has already been accomplished with my modded Horns leaving well enough alone might be the most practical. They sound stunning Here is a Khorn restoration thread of Dave's. I pulled the top hat picture showing the horn from post #18. If the Khorns in the thread are the pair you purchased it looks like the Fastrac horn with the tractrix flair. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/120758-khorn-project/ While it is not the Fastrac horn, here is a polar response plot of the Eliptrac that also has a similar tractrix flair. In general, when considering certain observations and reasons in the post and polar plots (above 8 KHz very narrow dispersion) of the Eliptrac and B&C DCX50 shown below, I find that the tractrix flair horns similar to Dave's are better suited for midrange use in a three-way system with a tweeter. Here's the polar plots on the Eliptrac 400 horn using the B&C DCX50 driver. It's the same horn as in the picture of it sitting on top my Belle Klipsch. With thanks to Lee Clinton. I am no expert on this sort of thing, but I think this is typical of using a big horn to go wide range. It's going to beam the highs. I suppose I just like 3-way systems! The dispersion is very smooth at 8000 Hz and not too bad at 12K. I don't think there is much doubt it will make a super mid-range horn with a separate tweeter. Al K. Edited August 3, 2015 by Fjd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) For reference, the equivalent plot for the K-402/K-69-A: Edited August 3, 2015 by Chris A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=hug&m=162278 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 Thanks Moray Wow - it appears that converting to 2-way is not only costly but technically over my head. I imagine my Fastlane/ALK conversion has already furthered the KHorns to the better with much larger horns within the top hat. I guess sometimes cost/complications do not always lead to greener grass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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