joessportster Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Lets talk DAC's In theory the purpose is to take the digital file and convert it to analog without adding any sound charcater of its oun, As we all know theory is great but it simply does not happen, every piece in an audio system adds something to the whole sound and that whole sound is what we strive to find, Add to this everyone is looking for something different in that whole sound. There are literally over a thousand choices when you figure oversampleing, upsampleing, non over sampleing, Wolffson, Burr Brown, AKM, Texas Instruments, Sabre and nameless other chips the decision can become daunting to say the the least. Coming from a 90% Vinyl background and knowing that was the soiund signature I preferred at least gave me a starting point. I wanted an analog SQ that leaned to the warm side,with detail and PRAT this in of itself starts you out fighting issues, when you say warm it automatically seems to carry stigma of boring, slow, lack of detail, and although I prefer that warmish analog SQ I certainly dont want to be put to sleep due to boredom and a lack of detail Now I am looking for a dac that has the analog, warmish SQ that also offers detail, PRAT, this is really quite a balancing act to find in any 1 piece of gear, you either find something a tad to warm which sounds veiled or sometning to fast and etched that causes fatigue With SO MANY DAC OPTIONS would it be smarter to build the balance of your system around your dac IE>>> get a dac that measures very well, and get an amp. pre-amp, speakers that complete the package in an attempt to make the whole sound fit what you are looking for. Theory sounds good but who's to say at the end of the day you will end up where you want to be ?? Imagine the cost involved with sswapping amps, pre-amps etc... compared to just a DAC..............I think I will just keep swapping DACs till I find my sweet spot My dac progression to date has been 47 labs, Ack Dac, California audio labs alpha both the 48 and 96 versions,Schiit Modi, Schiit Bifrost Uber, CEntrance DacMini, MHDT Havana, and Now The Metrum Octave, add to this mix the USB / Spdif converters Phree, Musical Fidelity, and Audiophellio, I am at a point now where I am maybe 90% happy with my SQ, I have gobs of detail, great seperation / air, 0 harshness, deep tight bass, extended highs. I miss that warmish lean Am I expecting to much or is this as good as I can expect Digital to sound ? I read so many reviews of people that are supposed to be ultimately happy with digital playback, I will say I am not suffering by any means with my music, it is stubid convenient to have 2000+ albums in the palm of your hand, a system that takes up only 2 square feet What do you all think ? what would you do ? Leave well enough alone or continue the quest ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 If you are getting close to the perfect state, leaving well enough alone, may be the answer, if possible Joe! The journey is just getting started or, it is ending, lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcox00 Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Have to confess I'm a bit overwhelmed by the scope of DAC options and choices, and have a lot to learn. Would love some education. As I believe you said Joe, my system and likes also center around vinyl playback sonics, but not to the point of excessive lack of detail. I'll listen for words of wisdom and advice on this subject. You're way ahead of me in the evaluation process - thanks for asking the question Joe. My amps, preamp and phono stage are all tube . . . .tube DAC as well? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) Premium components... once again, there is no substitute. just be careful how much you pay for those components. One thing a really good DAC does, is expose a bad recording... so many recordings I have I have to play via HDMI using the pioneer DAC because the Wyred will just clip and be completely un-listenable. Edited August 16, 2015 by Schu 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) I have to say my digital system is done I just got the rest of the items I wanted , I am more than happy now . Edited August 16, 2015 by A1UC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I have to say my digital system is done I just got the rest of the items I wanted , I am more than happy now . Oh sure, see you in the garage sale soon!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A1UC Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I have to say my digital system is done I just got the rest of the items I wanted , I am more than happy now . Oh sure, see you in the garage sale soon!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) The short answer is NO. Nothing is "perfect". There really isn't any such thing and even if there is, my personal view is that it would change as time marches on. That being said, my argument goes like this: What is preferable, a solid soldered connection, or a lot of broken connections via push-on connectors? What is preferable, lots and lots of cables, from meters long to many meters cumulatively, all with breaks in the connections along the signal path, or the shortest path possible? What is preferable, up sampling or no up sampling. What is preferable, up sampling only to higher and higher sample rates/bit depth, or going through multiple up and/or down sampling rates? What is preferable, going through only one, maybe two up sample rates/increased bit depth only with each going in one direction - higher, or going through multiple ADC/DAC conversions as we pass the signal from one component to another? There are products on the market that accomplish the ideals that we've been looking for. I've mentioned them before, but since they always get dismissed by most audiophiles I won't expound on it here any further. To me, the biggest problem is that most audiophiles who think they've heard an all-digital audio system are sadly mistaken. There are all kinds of analog in the signal path of most so-called "digital" components. IMO that's the weak link. And I would go so far as to say that "analog", as we perceive it, doesn't really exist. The whole of everything, including time itself, is made up of "bits". The question then becomes what is the smallest "bit", physically and in terms of time. That is the maximum resolution digital needs to achieve in order to be "perfect". OTOH, the question also arises as to what our "threshold" of perception is, at what point does it not make any difference, further improvement? Me, I've found what I'm looking for (and what I suspect you and others are looking for). That's not to say it can't be improved, but I don't know of anything "analog" that is up to the task anymore. "Analog" is the weak link. Edited August 16, 2015 by artto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 Premium components... once again, there is no substitute. just be careful how much you pay for those components. One thing a really good DAC does, is expose a bad recording... so many recordings I have I have to play via HDMI using the pioneer DAC because the Wyred will just clip and be completely un-listenable. Agreed there are a LOT of poor recordings that = poor reproduction, although I will say I have never had a dac clip due to a source My usb / spdif did submit a poor stream which caused some clicking but that ended up being the windows driver after updating the drivers 192 files play just fine now.................It is my understanding that when a dac does this it is not considered clipping rather the dac will not lock on the input signal Clock related ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share Posted August 16, 2015 The short answer is NO. Nothing is "perfect". There really isn't any such thing and even if there is, my personal view is that it would change as time marches on. That being said, my argument goes like this: What is preferable, a solid soldered connection, or a lot of broken connections via push-on connectors? What is preferable, lots and lots of cables, from meters long to many meters cumulatively, all with breaks in the connections along the signal path, or the shortest path possible? What is preferable, up sampling or no up sampling. What is preferable, up sampling only to higher and higher sample rates/bit depth, or going through multiple up and/or down sampling rates? What is preferable, going through only one, maybe two up sample rates/increased bit depth only with each going in one direction - higher, or going through multiple ADC/DAC conversions as we pass the signal from one component to another? There are products on the market that accomplish the ideals that we've been looking for. I've mentioned them before, but since they always get dismissed by most audiophiles I won't expound on it here any further. To me, the biggest problem is that most audiophiles who think they've heard an all-digital audio system are sadly mistaken. There are all kinds of analog in the signal path of most so-called "digital" components. IMO that's the weak link. And I would go so far as to say that "analog", as we perceive it, doesn't really exist. The whole of everything, including time itself, is made up of "bits". The question then becomes what is the smallest "bit", physically and in terms of time. That is the maximum resolution digital needs to achieve in order to be "perfect". OTOH, the question also arises as to what our "threshold" of perception is, at what point does it not make any difference, further improvement? Me, I've found what I'm looking for (and what I suspect you and others are looking for). That's not to say it can't be improved, but I don't know of anything "analog" that is up to the task anymore. "Analog" is the weak link. Please share your dac ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 The best sounding DAC that I've ever owned personally was the Benchmark DAC1 HDR. The resolution was so good that I immediately had to dump about half of my music downloads and search out FLAC file replacements. Higher resolution is a double-edged sword. This was several years ago, FLAC files are pretty much common now but when I started downloading the best you could hope for was 256 or 320 mp3's and the majority were only 128.. Of course storage space has improved dramatically (size & cost) as well so that also helps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 Lets talk DAC's With SO MANY DAC OPTIONS would it be smarter to build the balance of your system around your dac IE>>> get a dac that measures very well, and get an amp. pre-amp, speakers that complete the package in an attempt to make the whole sound fit what you are looking for. Theory sounds good but who's to say at the end of the day you will end up where you want to be ?? Imagine the cost involved with sswapping amps, pre-amps etc... compared to just a DAC..............I think I will just keep swapping DACs till I find my sweet spot What do you all think ? what would you do ? Leave well enough alone or continue the quest ? If you already have the rest of the system where you want it to be it probably would be easier to just cycle through a few DAC's until you find one that not only compliments the rest of your equipment but the room everything is piled in as well from your listening position with your ears. Change any other variable and its almost like starting from scratch again. I really like Benchmark and PS Audio personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) The short answer is NO. Nothing is "perfect". There really isn't any such thing and even if there is, my personal view is that it would change as time marches on. That being said, my argument goes like this: What is preferable, a solid soldered connection, or a lot of broken connections via push-on connectors? What is preferable, lots and lots of cables, from meters long to many meters cumulatively, all with breaks in the connections along the signal path, or the shortest path possible? What is preferable, up sampling or no up sampling. What is preferable, up sampling only to higher and higher sample rates/bit depth, or going through multiple up and/or down sampling rates? What is preferable, going through only one, maybe two up sample rates/increased bit depth only with each going in one direction - higher, or going through multiple ADC/DAC conversions as we pass the signal from one component to another? There are products on the market that accomplish the ideals that we've been looking for. I've mentioned them before, but since they always get dismissed by most audiophiles I won't expound on it here any further. To me, the biggest problem is that most audiophiles who think they've heard an all-digital audio system are sadly mistaken. There are all kinds of analog in the signal path of most so-called "digital" components. IMO that's the weak link. And I would go so far as to say that "analog", as we perceive it, doesn't really exist. The whole of everything, including time itself, is made up of "bits". The question then becomes what is the smallest "bit", physically and in terms of time. That is the maximum resolution digital needs to achieve in order to be "perfect". OTOH, the question also arises as to what our "threshold" of perception is, at what point does it not make any difference, further improvement? Me, I've found what I'm looking for (and what I suspect you and others are looking for). That's not to say it can't be improved, but I don't know of anything "analog" that is up to the task anymore. "Analog" is the weak link. Please share your dac ?? It's not just a "DAC". It's a single unit, a "DAC amplifier" if you will. One integrated unit, all digital input/throughput. It essentially integrates all the functions of DAC, DSP, preamp and power amp. The only thing that's analog is the final stage output to the speakers, and/or the recording if it was originally made that way. Class Z. The source is digital - a PC. No spinning disc. It doesn't play from the hard drive or optical drive, only from RAM so error correction is essentially not required/non-existent. And..............as I'm sure many of you will disagree, I don't use USB or S/PDIF or Toslink. I use HDMI. In my setup the DAC amplifier (the sink) takes control of the clock in the PC so there is essentially no HDMI digital jitter/judder. The PC up samples the file to 192/24, if the source FLAC or WAV file is not already in that format, and sends it directly to the DAC amplifier. One short HDMI cable is the only physical "break" in the signal path until the speaker outputs. All signal processing, whether it be simply gain control, or crossover to the subs, bass/treble, whatever, is done in the digital domain. The DAC amplfier up samples the incoming PCM 192/24 signal and converts it to PWM 35 bit and uses a 108MHz master clock. What is called direct digital feedback is applied in the final stage where the DAC amplifier employs a buffer and compares the original input signal with the final digital output and performs any required error correction before being converted to analog speaker output. That should pretty much tell you what it is. It ain't pretty, it an't cheap, per se', but I like to think of it as "Jack the Giant Killer". Edited August 16, 2015 by artto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzydog Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 The short answer is NO. Nothing is "perfect". There really isn't any such thing and even if there is, my personal view is that it would change as time marches on. That being said, my argument goes like this: What is preferable, a solid soldered connection, or a lot of broken connections via push-on connectors? What is preferable, lots and lots of cables, from meters long to many meters cumulatively, all with breaks in the connections along the signal path, or the shortest path possible? What is preferable, up sampling or no up sampling. What is preferable, up sampling only to higher and higher sample rates/bit depth, or going through multiple up and/or down sampling rates? What is preferable, going through only one, maybe two up sample rates/increased bit depth only with each going in one direction - higher, or going through multiple ADC/DAC conversions as we pass the signal from one component to another? There are products on the market that accomplish the ideals that we've been looking for. I've mentioned them before, but since they always get dismissed by most audiophiles I won't expound on it here any further. To me, the biggest problem is that most audiophiles who think they've heard an all-digital audio system are sadly mistaken. There are all kinds of analog in the signal path of most so-called "digital" components. IMO that's the weak link. And I would go so far as to say that "analog", as we perceive it, doesn't really exist. The whole of everything, including time itself, is made up of "bits". The question then becomes what is the smallest "bit", physically and in terms of time. That is the maximum resolution digital needs to achieve in order to be "perfect". OTOH, the question also arises as to what our "threshold" of perception is, at what point does it not make any difference, further improvement? Me, I've found what I'm looking for (and what I suspect you and others are looking for). That's not to say it can't be improved, but I don't know of anything "analog" that is up to the task anymore. "Analog" is the weak link. Please share your dac ?? It's not just a "DAC". It's a single unit, a "DAC amplifier" if you will. One integrated unit, all digital input/throughput. It essentially integrates all the functions of DAC, DSP, preamp and power amp. The only thing that's analog is the final stage output to the speakers, and/or the recording if it was originally made that way. Class Z. The source is digital - a PC. No spinning disc. It doesn't play from the hard drive or optical drive, only from RAM so error correction is essentially not required/non-existent. And..............as I'm sure many of you will disagree, I don't use USB or S/PDIF or Toslink. I use HDMI. In my setup the DAC amplifier (the sink) takes control of the clock in the PC so there is essentially no HDMI digital jitter/judder. The PC up samples the file to 192/24, if the source FLAC or WAV file is not already in that format, and sends it directly to the DAC amplifier. One short HDMI cable is the only physical "break" in the signal path until the speaker outputs. All signal processing, whether it be simply gain control, or crossover to the subs, bass/treble, whatever, is done in the digital domain. The DAC amplfier up samples the incoming PCM 192/24 signal and converts it to PWM 35 bit and uses a 108MHz master clock. What is called direct digital feedback is applied in the final stage where the DAC amplifier employs a buffer and compares the original input signal with the final digital output and performs any required error correction before being converted to analog speaker output. That should pretty much tell you what it is. It ain't pretty, it an't cheap, per se', but I like to think of it as "Jack the Giant Killer". NAD 390 if I remember your post correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzydog Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 http://nadelectronics.com/products/dac/C-390DD-Direct-Digital-Powered-DAC-Amplifier 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Correct. Even the NAD M2 doesn't have the HDMI capability. And their more recent products with the Hypex digital amplifiers are hybrid and result in an addition DAC/ADC conversion passing an analog signal from preamp to power amp. IMO, What's the point? It's the marketing department giving people what they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 NAD 390 if I remember your post correctly. Funny, that is what I was going to guess by your description. I almost pulled the trigger on one a while back on Audiogon for I think was around $1599.00. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I have only had one DAC, and it's the one I currently have, a Schiit Bifrost Uber with all the nice upgrades. I honestly don't know how I could get any better sound....I think the differences between that and other (probably much more expensive units) would be relatively minor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) This may sound odd, but have you tried augmenting the sound of the headphones with a subwoofer? The best headphones will give you excellent clarity and detail, but you won't feel any physical sensation below the neck. If you have a sub kicking around unused, maybe try hooking it into your system and locate it very close to your listening position. That way, it could be effective even at low volume. It may give you the warmth you're looking for. Due to the way my system is set up, plugging in the headphones cuts out some speakers, but not all. I checked and cut out the operating speakers, but the sub was still on. It added noticeably to the pleasure of listening with headphones, since my body was getting some of what my head was getting from the phones. Just an idea. Edited August 17, 2015 by Islander 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rjk1972 Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) I like to avoid upsampling. I want to hear the music unadulterated. I went through about a year period where I obsessed over DACs and drove all over the Northeast to hear and compare them. After many many entertaining trips and listening sessions I came to the conclusion that their are minimal differences between well implemented DACs. Some of the most notable differences were between the various inputs on the DACs and the actual age of the DAC (specifically where the USB inputs where concerned). I actually ended up with the Peachtree DACitx for 299.00. For USB (which i use for all of my music) it was comparable to the Rega DAC though the Rega DAC bested it through the other inputs. Due to an accident I am now in the market for another DAC and am stuck deciding between the Rega DACr (its a killer with its new USB implementation) and the Schiit DACs Bifrost with the upgraded Analog stage and the Gungnir. My main source is a Rega RP6 with 2m Blue cartridge.I use a Surface Pro 3 for a music server (its quieter then my laptop) and a restored Fisher 500c driving some Cornwalls. I prefer a detailed more Analog sound with a touch of warmth. That being said the DACs that I found appealing we're the Peachtree, the iFi DACs, the Meridian Director, the Rega DACr, the PS Audio Nuwave, Schiit Bifrost (in this spot on the list because it is the best buy that I have come across) and the best sounding DACs I've heard are the Chord 2qute and the Limpizator DAC 4. All that being said the biggest improvement in sound came from the last two. All the 1000.00 and under DACs sound almost the same with only a few subtle differences and I think you'd be hard pressed to pick the Rega, the PS Audio and the Schiit Bifrost apart if you didn't see which one was hooked up. I should mention I added the Gungnir in based on input from people I respect. I really want to hear that and the Micromega MyDac and the new iFi Audio DAC before I decide on my new DAC. Edited August 17, 2015 by Rjk1972 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.