tube fanatic Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 No discussion of tubes is complete without including the marketing of "cryogenically treated" tubes. The claims made are often amazing- lower noise floor, increased bass, smoother highs, elimination of microphonics, and just about anything else one could want. Personally, I consider that process in the same way I do "magic cable trestles," putting pennies and other coins on top of speaker cabinets to "tune" the sound, etc. The extra money charged for this process seems to be a total waste. And, there's always the question of whether the seller even did anything to the tubes! I know that some may disagree with this, but until a true scientific analysis of changes in a tube's behavior and internal structure is published, I will remain totally skeptical. Please post your experiences with such tubes and how you verified that the seller actually subjected them to the deep freeze. Here's The Tubestore's take on the issue:http://blog.thetubestore.com/cryo-tube-controversy-the-chilling-truth/ Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalcomfort Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Magic carpet stuff. Got to invent new ways to sell things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) you won't get to the bottom of this because you will find metallurgists who will tell you it does nothing and metallurgists who say it make significant changes. Who do you want to believe?. I will say that industry uses cryogenic treatment for all kinds of applications and often at tremendous expense so why spend all that money for nothing? If you have no personal experience then say so and feel free to think about it what you will or try it and draw your own conclusions one way or the other. I got involved with cryogenics back in 1988. I was part owner of a company working with Ed Meitner (now of of EMM Labs) and we treated prototype samples of new unreleased DAC's made by Analog Devices (we employed a design engineer who had worked with them for a number of years). We sent out multiple samples (through Analog Devices the companies knew nothing of our involvement) of DAC's to companies to try out in their products. In each sample of DAC's there were two versions "A" and "B". What the companies did not know was that both versions were the exact same DAC only one was a cryo treated version and the other was not frozen. The cryo treated versions were consistently preferred. We even cryo treated a test CD for Stereophile magazine (thousands of them). Much of my personal equipment and speaker parts are cryo treated. Like I said think what you will but if you have no direct experience please don't go telling people who do that they are fools. Up until recently I used to do a lot of cryo treatment in house but I am no longer able to do so. Cryo technology is used in a lot of diverse areas, you treat seeds to micro shatter the delicate seed coat and now you have a seed that will germinate much more quickly than a non treated seed can. All kinds of fascinating applications. Try to keep an open mind and you might be surprised. Best regards Moray James. my avatar has "cryogenics" on the lower half just below the boar's head. Edited August 19, 2015 by moray james 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted August 19, 2015 Author Share Posted August 19, 2015 Good counterpoint Moray! Of course, I did say above that my views are personal which is why I'm asking for folks to post their experiences. It's the same as when audio guys get into discussions of whether black plate tubes sound better than gray plate tubes or vice versa. No scientific proof, but some claim to hear differences. But, to get back to the point, have you run comparisons with cryo vs. non-cryo treated tubes? And, if so, were you able to measure any electrical differences (other than normal production tolerances which would cause voltage/current variations, etc.) which could explain the sonic differences? Part of my skepticism also stems from a respected vendor like Tube Depot, which stands to make a great deal of money on the concept, rejecting it. In any event, thanks for reminding me of the Stereophile article. I actually remember that and here's the link for those who want to read about that experiment:http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/822/#J5CDEYdz40JaXHYl.97Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Oh, sorry, I thought this was the "We are getting too old to have children" thread...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Good counterpoint Moray! Of course, I did say above that my views are personal which is why I'm asking for folks to post their experiences. It's the same as when audio guys get into discussions of whether black plate tubes sound better than gray plate tubes or vice versa. No scientific proof, but some claim to hear differences. But, to get back to the point, have you run comparisons with cryo vs. non-cryo treated tubes? And, if so, were you able to measure any electrical differences (other than normal production tolerances which would cause voltage/current variations, etc.) which could explain the sonic differences? Part of my skepticism also stems from a respected vendor like Tube Depot, which stands to make a great deal of money on the concept, rejecting it. In any event, thanks for reminding me of the Stereophile article. I actually remember that and here's the link for those who want to read about that experiment: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/822/#J5CDEYdz40JaXHYl.97 Maynard Most all of the tubes that I have are cryo treated. I understand where you are coming from Maynard. No I never measured the tubes I only ever listened to them. I can assure you that from my very first experience I was amazed and convinced. I have cryo treated transformers tubes resistors capacitors inductors and solid state devices. Some people can be real idiots when they want to be. I used to offer to cryo treat all sorts of things totally free of charge all I would ask was the postage and people would not even bother, it was too much trouble but they would spend hours on line talking about something they had no idea about. They had no interest in finding out either. Measuring tubes or anything else to see if there are differences or just to check to see if the item has been treated is as far as I am concerned a waste of time and money, you are not likely to find or see any difference with any tests that you could afford. That is not to say that we did not try because we did we simply never found anything of use but you only have to listen to a single note of music to know. Ed cryo treated a flute for the principal flute player of the symphony in Calgary. The flute was her second best as she had only just bought a new one she was worried the new one (her best one) might be damaged. When she got the treated flute back she said she could feel the difference on her lip on the first note she played. The second best flute immediately became her best again until we could treat her new flute a few weeks later when it once again became her best flute. I have treated speed skateing blades (many pro teams now do so) and even a set of bob sleigh runners which won on their first use and were then mysteriously stolen on the same day in France (probably by the French). I Cross linked and cryo treated some of the diaphragms we used in our planar loudspeakers and in my electrostatic diaphragms. But I cannot show you any measurement that would tell you a thing. That is just how it is. So I have no problem with anyone being skeptical. I know what I know and I froze all I have so I am good for now. I will say that with things like interconnects you need to cryo treat after they are buit. I can hear the impact of a single reflowed solder joint so treat after all work has been done. As I said feel free to think what you will. Best regards Moray James. Edited August 19, 2015 by moray james Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I think those tubes will last longer, like Michael Jackson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I can hear the impact of a single reflowed solder joint OK, so if that solder joint was originally cold, then I would understand your statement, otherwise, that's very, very hard to believe. Or, you are Superman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 There was a sci-fiction story for teens where colonists were recruited to go to a planet on another star. One test question was: What would you do if you were out in space (space walking) and all the tubes in you radio were smashed. The proper answer was: Nothing, they'd be in the vacuum of space and would function. It made wonder whether the early NASA missions didn't have tubes subjected to the cold of space, at least when the heaters were not on. Was anything found? Did NASA do any testing for this? WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I can hear the impact of a single reflowed solder joint OK, so if that solder joint was originally cold, then I would understand your statement, otherwise, that's very, very hard to believe. Or, you are Superman. This is in fact a demonstration that I made on a number of occasions using two RCA fitted digital interconnects where there are only four solder joints per cable. Listen to both cables re flow just one joint on one cable and listen again. I have done this so the other person(s)did not know which cable I soldered and they were always able to identify which was which. I suppose that you maynot believe either that someone can hear any differences between wires or solders or what ever. So if that makes me superman in your estimate so be it. As I have said it makes no difference to me one way or the other and there is no way for me to prove any of this to you or anyone else. Think what you like, I am not asking you to believe anything. I am not selling anything I am not profiting from this in any way. You are going to think what you will no matter what is said. If you have not enough interest to try this for yourself then at least have enough respect not to name call others who are willing to share their experiences after all that is how we learn from the sharing of experiences and then in testing those experiences for ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 This reminds me of a post on some oddball part of the web which came to my attention about 15 years ago. One fellow claimed that all soldering of audio equipment should be silver solder, or something, "'cause you can definitely hear solder." Oh, my goodness ! ! ! Consider going from recording microphone to speaker: microphone and microphone wire to mike amp wire to mixer to wire to recorder with media, then sensor for the media and wire to preamp and wire from pre-amp to power amp to speaker wire to internal crossover. There are tens of wire solder joints. In the amps there must be hundreds of solder joints connecting transistors/tubes and other components. Overall, we must be listening to 1000 solder connections, conservatively. So how come the problem is with just a single one in one of our components which gets reflowed? How does that work? WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 This reminds me of a post on some oddball part of the web which came to my attention about 15 years ago. One fellow claimed that all soldering of audio equipment should be silver solder, or something, "'cause you can definitely hear solder." Oh, my goodness ! ! ! Consider going from recording microphone to speaker: microphone and microphone wire to mike amp wire to mixer to wire to recorder with media, then sensor for the media and wire to preamp and wire from pre-amp to power amp to speaker wire to internal crossover. There are tens of wire solder joints. In the amps there must be hundreds of solder joints connecting transistors/tubes and other components. Overall, we must be listening to 1000 solder connections, conservatively. So how come the problem is with just a single one in one of our components which gets reflowed? How does that work? WMcD William: I never said there was a problem. I said that in the case of the example given that I could hear the difference when just one solder joint was re flowed. That is what I said. I also said that others could hear the difference. I never said that everyone would hear the difference. I don't see that any of the other joints in the system have much to do with this or all the miles of cable in the power system which are inevitably brought up when folks (naysayers) balk about others hearing differences in power cords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Moray, geez, give it a rest. I said it was very, very hard to believe (for me), and you confirmed that above. And I said that if it is true (which you also said you could not prove), then you must have Super hearing, and if I were you, I would take that as a compliment, and leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 A bit off subject but to the general topic in three decades working in manufacturing/engineering I can say without hesitation that cryoed cutting tools, regardless the material being cut metal, paper etc. tooling was much more durable after being treated. Although a relative expensive process it was easily documented the additional up time vs. cost was worth the expense. And yes I have a few tubes, ac outlet and cable that are cryoed. Do they sound better? Don't know but having seen the process proved in other industries - why not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Iv been buying Chinese tubes for the past 20+ years. Never had a problem, reasonable cost and packed well. When Tube plants closed in the US, most sold their equipment overseas. The QC has gotten better over the years, 98% of tubes are matched within a millivolt or two. Last time i talked to my guy, "Primeamp" in China, he stated im in a country with two Billion people, you do not cut corners in his trade or your family dissappers. I did ask him about the "Upgrade" tubes, Cryo, Rodium and the like, he simply said if they were better he would be making them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Moray, geez, give it a rest. I said it was very, very hard to believe (for me), and you confirmed that above. And I said that if it is true (which you also said you could not prove), then you must have Super hearing, and if I were you, I would take that as a compliment, and leave it at that. Thank you Jim for the back handed compliment. I commented because it is from my experience very easy for such discussions to simply slide into name calling. I think my point has been made. If folks do not believe or are skeptical that is fine. But as comments about bombs guns or box cutters have no place in an airport passenger waiting line neither to comments which can only too easily be miss construed as insults or at the very least have no possible positive contribution to make in such a thread as this one. You see how easy it is then to misunderstand, you say it is a complement I hear slur. I am in fact not giving this a rest because it is important that people understand that comments like this contribute nothing to the discussion. I would like to see the discussion continue A bit off subject but to the general topic in three decades working in manufacturing/engineering I can say without hesitation that cryoed cutting tools, regardless the material being cut metal, paper etc. tooling was much more durable after being treated. Although a relative expensive process it was easily documented the additional up time vs. cost was worth the expense. And yes I have a few tubes, ac outlet and cable that are cryoed. Do they sound better? Don't know but having seen the process proved in other industries - why not? my brother was a mold maker and he spent time in the aerospace industry and saw many very large (automobile and larger size) molds cryo treated many times during manufacture. Just one of the very many applications. I fully expect that there are bicycles in the tour du France with just about part of them cryo treated including carbon fiber parts. Edited August 20, 2015 by moray james Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juniper Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I am with Moray on this one, in regards to some things that can't be measured....... Its about your ears and your perception.... cooling things does change things.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeg2 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 A short comment on cryo treating cutting tools - steel. There is a clear and explainable effect. Steel undergoes a phase transition (martensitic transition) at very cold temperatures - the crystal structure actually changes, which leads to marked changes in hardness - thus the utility for cutting tools and parts that undergo wear. This transition can also have deleterious effects (liberty ships in WWII, Japanese samurai swords in mainland China in the winter...). If you look at the phase diagram for steel, this transition is very clear. The materials used in tubes do not have phase transitions of this type at cryo temperatures - if anything, the crystal structures are more stable as they get colder due to simple kinetics. The only change in properties that I'd anticipate upon cooling would be simply that they get cold. I'm not going to comment on what differences people say they hear - that leads to discussions that tend to self destruct. People hear what they hear and think what they think - so be it. However, as a former materials engineer (ScD in nuclear materials), I do feel that I understand the materials aspects of this quite well from basic principles and these principles are well understood in the industry. Rich 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Whereas cryo treating has well known benefits regarding metals, and can be considered as a "heat" treating process, there is no scientific evidence that cryo has any benefit on the sound that passes through a cryo treated part. It seems to affect the mechanical aspects of a metal more than the electrical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaBoy Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 A bit off subject but to the general topic in three decades working in manufacturing/engineering I can say without hesitation that cryoed cutting tools, regardless the material being cut metal, paper etc. tooling was much more durable after being treated. Although a relative expensive process it was easily documented the additional up time vs. cost was worth the expense. And yes I have a few tubes, ac outlet and cable that are cryoed. Do they sound better? Don't know but having seen the process proved in other industries - why not? I have read posts on other forums and cryo does have positive effects with toosl etc. One wood worker said with cryo plane blades no sanding was necessary. I have used cryo new production tubes and can't say if it made a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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