Vintage vs. modern integrated amp- which is a better value?

[tube fanatic]

I'm often asked whether is pays to buy a vintage integrated amp (such as the ever popular Scotts and Fishers), or a new one for use with Klipsch speakers.  Here are some random thoughts, and I hope that many users of both types of amps will post their experiences:

The biggest issue with the former is the unknown amount of wear on the pots used for balance and volume adjustment, and the bakelite wafer switches used to select inputs and other functions (these amps were often stuffed into poorly ventilated cabinets resulting in very high internal heat buildup- the bakelite switch wafers can be very brittle and eventually crack).  Should either of these fail, securing a suitable modern replacement can be impossible in some cases, and finding original parts in top condition may only be possible at huge cost.  The pots can sometimes be "fixed" with a squirt of DeOxit, or by taking them apart for a proper internal cleaning and adjustment.  Same for the wafer switches, assuming the bakelite wafer is not cracked.  So, it comes down to a combination of how much you need to pay for the amp, and whether you are able to restore it yourself (the parts needed usually don't cost more than $100 or so, unless you go for exotic caps, etc.).  For a total investment of, say, under $500 (assuming you don't have to re-tube the whole unit) you have a chance to own an amp which will sound wonderful with any Klipsch speaker.  Professional restoration can bring the cost into the upper hundreds of dollars.  You just need to be willing to take the gamble that the unit will last a long time (one never knows what kind of abuse vintage equipment has had which could eventually result in a transformer failure- this can be very costly to resolve.  I've encountered this many times over the years.).  The vintage amps generally have a channel balance control or individual R/L volume controls (usually lacking in new equipment- needed to properly center the stereo sound stage), a phono preamp (not always present in new amps), and some selectable filters and tone controls.

With similarly priced modern amps, you get a warranty (always valuable!) and, in some cases, the ability to return the amp for a refund if not satisfied with it.  Many of the amps under the $1k price point are made in China, and the quality of the parts may be unknown unless the unit has been reviewed in detail.  If a power or output xfmr fails, securing an exact replacement may be difficult.  As mentioned above, these amps usually lack some, or all, of the useful features of the vintage units.  As to sound, many think they are excellent.  Brands like Cayin, Yaqin, JoLida, and others are used by some forum members with good results.  

For those who have much more to spend, but want the appearance and sound of a vintage amp in a modern unit, check out the offerings by Leben:

http://lebenhifi.com/

It seems that the company has created modern equipment which looks and sounds (according to reviews- I haven't had the pleasure of hearing their amps myself) vintage.  The build quality is among the best point to point work you will ever find.  If you scroll down in this link you will see a couple of under-chassis pics which demonstrate this:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/leben/cs300x_2.html

And, here's a link with the view under one of their discontinued amps:

http://www.hifiexpert.eu/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/s/cs300x_down_l.jpg

So, there it is.  Let's get some other opinions going on this subject.


Maynard

[FloridaBoy]

Maynard,

 

The vintage amps have a cult following and can be very good if restored properly. However, they are no longer the bargain they were and cosmetically excellent examples are hard to find. IMHO, they have become more of a collectable than an every day user. Some folks may disagree and that's fine. I am not bashing them. I had a Pilot 240 that I wish I never sold, charming sound but I won't look for another. The Cayin amps are very well made and have modern 'vintage' circuits. Better parts, modern RCA's and speaker connections etc. The Bob Latino ST-70 is a much improved version of the original Dynaco and is a very fine amp. I would take it over a restored/modified original. Bob also has an improved PAS preamp.

 

There are many small builders here in the USA and Japan that make outstanding products. The best tube gear I ever had was a Shindo Cortese amp and Monbrison preamp. I also had proper speakers and sources.I bought it used and it cost me $500 to enjoy it for a year. It did not sound vintage but it conveyed music in a way that was riveting. You did not want to do anything but listen. I don't think I will ever own anything 'better' and that's O.K.

 

System synergy is the key and that can be achieved with vintage or modern electronics.

 

BTW, I kinda like tone controls and miss them.

 

Link to some 'modern' American vintage: http://www.tubes4hifi.com/TN.htm#RC The Ray amp looks sweet!

[mike stehr]

I think value depends on the person.

 

Like you mention, if one is a DIY type of person with enough knowledge to go about re-capping/restoring a integrated amp such as a HH Scott, the person can do it for minimal cost in passive parts. Provided the original tubes are still strong and usable. Even a poor DIY type could afford to go this route...I did...

 

 

OTOH, if one had plenty of cash to toss around for the audio hobby, the ($3300?) Leben CS-300XS isn't really that expensive. The guy wants the sound, but has no time/desire to learn the technical aspects of vacuum tube audio. He just wants something plug and play that sounds awesome with whatever speakers used.

 

It would be good value to this sort of person, because the looks of the product give me the impression of reliability. My opinion, however...

 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/gallery/image/33-lk48b-resized/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2015 by mike stehr

[Colin]

Vintage bargains allow tweaking audiophiles to save their money for the pieces of home theater music and movie reproduction systems that you can't be easily or inexpensively found on the used markets. Vintage equipment requires repairs, rebuilds or refurbishing. Refurbished electronic products are not merely used ones. They are normally tested for functionality and defects, like they do with certified pre-owned automobiles. Vintage refurbished tube amplifiers typically have bias, resistors and capacitors checked, and if necessary, replaced. They may also have their potentiometer knobs, connections and motherboards cleaned.

So refurbished vintage equipment has real value, even if you can't control it with your tablet or smart phone. In fact, a stereo magazine survey a few years ago found that most tweaking audiophiles have some piece of equipment in their system that is a dozen years old. Something sounds good, we keep it.

One problem with tubes though, is they don't suddenly quit, like when a chip is gone. Tubes slowly wear out, so the unit just doesn't sound musical anymore. Vintage tube equipment needs refurbishing. So add a few hundred more to an old unit, plus several weeks for the refurbishing of tubes, capacitors and any other worn out parts. Then these revitalized babies compete with many new tube amplifiers costing thousands more. With vintage integrated tube amplifiers, you can find wonderful bargains for only a few hundred. I have heard vintage Scott, Eico and Fisher integrated tube amplifiers compete very favorably with new tube amplifiers on Big Ole Horn loudspeakers.

 

http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0215/Breathe_New_Life_Into_Old_Gear.htm

[Dr Morbius]

I have heard vintage Scott, Eico and Fisher integrated tube amplifiers compete very favorably with new tube amplifiers on Big Ole Horn loudspeakers.

 

I couldn't agree more!

Edited September 21, 2015 by Dr Morbius