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Cornscala or Oris Horn Please Help

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OK I am in a dilemma I am in the market for my next speakers, My system is all tube Primaluna Dialog Premiun HP amp with 8 KT 120 85w per channel, Primaluna Dialog Premiun Pre amp, Manley Steelhed Phono, VPI HRX Turntable with Shelter Harmony Cartidge. My current speakers are Silverline Audio Sonatina MK4, They sound Beautiful with vocals and jazz but suck big time with rock and pop.

 

I want to move into something more appropriate for my system (tubes) that will perform great either with vocals as well as rock or pop. These are the 3 options I am considering:

 

1) Crites Cornscalas with ALK Extreme Slope Crossovers, B&C Drivers and Crites Woofer and and Eliptrac Horns, similar to the one built by .

 

2) BD Design Oris Horn with an 8" Fostex Full Range Driver and an Compact woofer Module with a 15 inch woofer.

 

3) BD Design Opheans M3 with BMS 4592 compression driver and an Compact woofer Module with a 15 inch woofer.

 

 

Please tell me what model would you choose and why?

 

 

Thanks in advanced for the help.

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The following is meant to understand your thinking and to tease out your constraints:

 

Applying screening criteria first...

 

1) Why would you use a horn with a curved wall?  This results in a "horn sound".  This especially includes any Oris horn, unless you are going 4- or 5-way to avoid the problem, of course introducing problems in the process.

 

2) Why would you ascribe direct radiating drivers (woofers) the most important portion of the loudspeaker design: bass frequencies...where you can hear all the harmonic distortion and modulation distortion products, as well as compression distortion?  Why not La Scala,  Belle, or quarter pie bass bins (if have personal or WAF issues with size), or Khorn/Jubilee horn-loaded bass bins (for those that have more room to do a better job).  They have much lower modulation distortion--which determines the "cleanness" of sound and dynamic range that you'll likely want for rock--n-roll and pop, up to A440 tuning fork frequencies.

 

As for the remaining choices, well...there aren't any if you consider the any of the above screening criteria relevant.  You'll be needing more alternatives.

 

I'd recommend rectangular conical horn profiles of 90 x 60 degree coverage angles with mouth flares, and horn-loaded midbass or bass bins if your decision criterion actually is (and is limited to...) your stated one.

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

Chris  :)

Edited by Chris A
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I would love to get a system like yours Problem is finding it  K-402 are hard to find so the Jub If you had a $4k Budget for a speaker what would yo buy / build? Maybe that's a better question :) 

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That's a lot easier to answer, IMHO.

 

La Scalas go for about $800-$1200 a pair in good condition (when all is said and done, i.e., this isn't the buyer's typical asking price).  Expected value of your remaining funds: $3000.

 

A pair of K-402s (which are big) (American Cinema Equipment [Cinequip]) would be either $600 (horns only), or $2400 (horns with adjustable bases and K-69-A drivers).  I recommend horns only if using a K-402 to save a lot of money.  I assume that you can fabricate a base to hold onto the throat of the horn That leaves you $2400.

 

A pair of K-510s (much, much smaller) are about $400-$500, or even less (American Cinema Equipment [Cinequip] - ask for Spencer Chao).  You'll have to pay a little attention to the ceiling and floor bounce of the K-510 below about 1200 Hz down to 600 Hz.  That leaves you $2500 or more.

 

A pair of BMS4592-ND drivers with analog crossovers would be about $1500.  You can use the remaining $1K to buy a really good crossover of your choice.  Since the compression driver will take you from 300-20,000 Hz, you don't have to do much to time align - just push the K-402s to the back of the La Scala cabinets.  Voila! Done.  If you are using K-510s, then you'd cross over to the bass bins at ~600 Hz.  Remaining budget: about $1K. 

 

You'll need a good crossover - you can use passive, active-analog, or active-digital.  All have their advantages and disadvantages. You'll have to do EQing since the K-510 and the K-402 are "constant coverage" horns.

  • Passives are usually the price leader, and the choice for the "old school" crowd and those that can't bring themselves to bi-amp,
  • Active-analogs for those that don't need digital delay or digital EQ, requiring bi-amping, and
  • Active-digital for those that can say "yes" to the 21st century (i.e., can transcend their anti-digital bias) which will achieve fully bi-amped transparent sound.  I recommend Xilica or other unit that has 24/96 internal sampling depth/rate (but forget anything from Behringer or miniDSP).

Okay, so you really, really don't want horn-loaded bass bins, then I'd recommend the Crites Cornscala cabinets, which are a bit nicer sounding than Cornwall bass bins.  Bob would probably make you a deal on those. 

 

If you play your cards right - for $4k total budget, you might be able to afford TAD TD-4002 drivers with all the other stuff.  Or you can buy or make good subs, if you don't already have one or two.

 

That's what I'd do given today's marketplace.  Perhaps others will chime in with their opinions.

 

Chris.

Edited by Chris A

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I dont get into the tech side as Chris does, I can tell you I have owned 4 and heard another 4 oris horn setups and they are SUPERB when dialed in with the right gear, Nothing Klipsch offers up to & including  the khorn can touch them IMHO (I have not heard the jubilee so cant comment) The oris truly need to be Bi or Tri amp'ed to sing

 

Your Prima Luna would not be considered the right gear, reason is the oris are so effecient your amp would be OVERKILL to the MAX..............also for the 8 inch driver I would look beyond the fostex and try for the AER SSSSSOOOO MMMUUUUUCCCCCCHHHHHH BETTER

 

I have also had the orphean horns which were superb when I drove them with a 3/4 watt 10Y amp, anything more than that 3/4 watt on the orphean made them hard to integrate while achieving the best SQ

 

for your current gear I would go along with chris and look at the cornscala, lascala. k-horns (I would not consider the belle unless looks are an issue, when I had the belle they were nice but sounded no better than lascala)

 

You seem to have a nice budget so have Fun & Welcome to the Forums

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Best thing about Crites Cornscala is that they are plug and play. Why change drivers and crossovers? Diminishing returns in my opinion. Just put them together as designed and they well shake your room to the foundations and sound great while they do it. 

 

If you're more into custom and finicky there are great ways to spend time and money. There is much greater risk / reward going down this path. The 402 and 510 are untouchable.

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there is something "wonky" about this thread...

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How much room do you have?  Look at my avatar.  OK, never mind.  Most people won't do such a giant setup.  :)

 

The other thing is that it sounds like your budget might be a little flexible.  Another 2-3K..........say 6-7K total for sepakers.........and you will only have to do this once.  Jubs would be my recommendation as they are perfect all around mid-sized speaker system with probably the best set of compromises and capabilities to play all the different genres well.

 

The whole thing about Klipsch is the horn bass.  I would focus on that as the highest priority.

 

No offense to the cornascala..........but I think you'd be going backwards.

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Thanks everyone I was really thinking on getting a pair of the KPT-Jubilee/535-B since finding one in the used market is impossible, I have heard both Lascala and cornscala and lascala lacks thight and power at the bottom end. Thats the reason that Bob Crites created the cornsala (the mid of lascala and the bass of the cornwall, Please educate me why you guys love so much the bass horns.

 

What will be the advantage of let say the Pro KPT-Jubilee Bass section vs dual AE-15 drivers per channel in a properly designed Ported Box with a Hypex DSP Plate amp?

 

Once again thanks for all the suggestions. 

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.......

Jubs would be my recommendation as they are perfect all around mid-sized speaker system with probably the best set of compromises and capabilities to play all the different genres well.

 

The whole thing about Klipsch is the horn bass.  I would focus on that as the highest priority.

....

Mark, you are one of the very few people who has earned the right to refer to the Jubilee as a "mid-sized" system.

Yes, I agree the Jubilees horn bass is a priority.

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What will be the advantage of let say the Pro KPT-Jubilee Bass section vs dual AE-15 drivers per channel in a properly designed Ported Box with a Hypex DSP Plate amp?

 

Try this as a starter [link corrected].  Once you've digested that, then you can absorb this.

 

[Comment: Higher-order modulation distortion products, both positive and negative on the higher frequency dual-tone, will be much more objectionable to the human hearing system due to the phenomenon known as "masking".  This means that horn-loaded bass bins will have a 18-20+ dB lower level of audible modulation distortion spikes on either side of the higher dual-tone frequency.]

 

Mainly, once you've heard the difference, you don't need a technical white paper or test report to tell you that there is a qualitative difference between horn-loaded bass bins and direct radiators. 

 

If you like to listen to bass distortion (and many people apparently like to "hear" their bass in the form of both modulation and harmonic distortion that piles up at higher and more audible frequencies). then my suggestion is to ignore these reports and just use direct radiators.

 

For me, it's one of the critical few differences between real hi-fi and everything else.  Vented boxes (bass reflex) have never sounded real to me - and is always very sloppy to my ears and opaque (i.e., modulation distortion abounds), even if the radiating area of the woofers equals or surpasses the mouth area of the horn-loaded bass bin.

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

Edited by Chris A

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1) Why would you use a horn with a curved wall? This results in a "horn sound". This especially includes any Oris horn, unless you are going 4- or 5-way to avoid the problem, of course introducing problems in the process.

 

that does not include Oris 150 horn. not even a bit. no honkiness no coloration at all.

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A pair of K-402s (which are big) (American Cinema Equipment [Cinequip]) would be either $600 (horns only)

 

I would be truly interested in a pair of K402s if the horns could be sold lonely. where can I purchase?

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where can I purchase?

 

I don't have a clue about international sales.  You need to talk to Roy--I can't help you with this.

 

I'd be willing to discuss the differences between K-402s/K-510s and other horns, but probably not in this thread: this thread is supposed to be about recommending loudspeaker configurations for the OP.

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After playing mix match with drivers and horns with a budget set of K-horns I have a different take now. I bought these things stock and figured I would be satisfied and never have to look at speakers again. After dropping a little over 3K in them for BMS drivers, V-trac mid horns, Beyma tweeters and some very upscale, great sounding Jupiter flat stack X-overs from Dean, I had the opportunity to hear Mr. Crites Jubilee's.  Well as great as my K's sound, they don't have the spacious, effortless sound of Jubilees.   If possible, save your money. The Jubs with the 402's are worth the wait and the extra dough and then some. 

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Well, I guess that I don't have to describe the differences now between K-402s and other horns.

 

Bob C. is a great guy for keeping those speakers around and letting folks listen to them, since he doesn't have any financial gain for demonstrating them for his customers.  He's got my vote for person of the month.

 

Chris

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I'd recommend rectangular conical horn profiles of 90 x 60 degree coverage angles with mouth flares, and horn-loaded midbass or bass bins if your decision criterion actually is (and is limited to...) your stated one.

 

I'm out of my league in this discussion, but the horns Moray James has for sale are 90 x 60.  They measure about 12" wide.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/158928-fs-klipsch-cf34-resin-horns/

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I have heard Bobs' jubilee's also. They are the best sounding speaker I had ever heard!! I new I could never afford a pair, so I built some jamborees. I have a bass now that is very close to the jubilee, but that horn on top, I wished I had a pair. The horn and driver they use is just magic to my ears, buy them you will not regret it!!!!!

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What will be the advantage of let say the Pro KPT-Jubilee Bass section vs dual AE-15 drivers per channel in a properly designed Ported Box with a Hypex DSP Plate amp.

The bass horn will always sound clearer, and cleaner.

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Mark, you are one of the very few people who has earned the right to refer to the Jubilee as a "mid-sized" system.

 

 

 

Yes.  And as a matter of fact all the others are small.  :)

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