Jump to content

Musical Sub vs HT Sub


A1UC

Recommended Posts

I guess the first question would be for us to hear your definition of each?  How do you put one in one category or the other.  For me, If a unit can dig deep and be accurate in doing so, it would excel at each.

True.  To add to that, whilst digging deep, if it can maintain accuracy during a challenging drum set for example, Blackness by Metallica.  Obviously some subs are 'better' than others.  I agree with CECAA850, definition and accuracy whilst remaining powerful.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's odd is that I don't think I've ever seen a manufacturer advertise a "music" sub and a separate "home theater" sub.  OTOH practically everybody I've ever read on these many forums talk about those two classifications of subs like they are two different products!

 

What would that ad look like?

 

For Sale:  Klipsch Musical sub.  CAUTION:  NOT to be used with Home Theater!

 

For Sale:  Klipsch Home Theater Sub:  Warning:  Will not work with music.

 

 

Does this sound ridiculous?

Edited by wvu80
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's odd is that I don't think I've ever seen a manufacturer advertise a "music" sub and a separate "home theater" sub.  OTOH practically everybody I've ever read on these many forums talk about those two classifications of subs like they are two different products!

 

What would that ad look like?

 

For Sale:  Klipsch Musical sub.  CAUTION:  NOT to be used with Home Theater!

 

For Sale:  Klipsch Home Theater Sub:  Warning:  Will not work with music.

I think Cerwin Vega did at one point.  But we don't need to talk about them... :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My opinion on the subject:

 

1. The whole slow / fast argument for a sub has been proven to be BS at least with most subs.  It's even been measured, look up an article from Red Spade Audio.  The decay times from the room negates anything coming out of the sub.  

 

2. The whole "size of the woofer" in general has been proven to be BS at least with most subs.  Saying get a 12" instead of 15" in general because it will be more musical is BS.  

 

3. What may or may not be BS is motor design.  There are manufacturers of subs built for HT with VERY low FS and big massive motors that they claim sucks on music because of the motor, but this is even with small woofers, while there are tight 18's out there.  

 

4. What for sure ISN'T BS though is cabinet design, especially with ported subs.  You can in fact hear ringing, midrange noise, huffing, resonances, and all kinds of junk coming out of some subs, in addition to unnatural peaks on some of them.  This will kill the musicality faster than anything else.  

 

5. Amplifiers and DSP's can affect musicality as well.  If the DSP rounds off all the peaks for example.  Gotta have that headroom.  

 

6. Blending with the mains will make or break any setup in terms of music.  

Edited by MetropolisLakeOutfitters
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My opinion on the subject:

 

1. The whole slow / fast argument for a sub has been proven to be BS at least with most subs.  It's even been measured, look up an article from Red Spade Audio.  The decay times from the room negates anything coming out of the sub.  

 

2. The whole "size of the woofer" in general has been proven to be BS at least with most subs.  Saying get a 12" instead of 15" in general because it will be more musical is BS.  

 

3. What may or may not be BS is motor design.  There are manufacturers of subs built for HT with VERY low FS and big massive motors that they claim sucks on music because of the motor, but this is even with small woofers, while there are tight 18's out there.  

 

4. What for sure ISN'T BS though is cabinet design, especially with ported subs.  You can in fact hear ringing, midrange noise, huffing, resonances, and all kinds of junk coming out of some subs, in addition to unnatural peaks on some of them.  This will kill the musicality faster than anything else.  

 

5. Amplifiers and DSP's can affect musicality as well.  If the DSP rounds off all the peaks for example.  Gotta have that headroom.  

 

6. Blending with the mains will make or break any setup in terms of music.  

And...I'm spent  :wacko:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's odd is that I don't think I've ever seen a manufacturer advertise a "music" sub and a separate "home theater" sub.  OTOH practically everybody I've ever read on these many forums talk about those two classifications of subs like they are two different products!

 

What would that ad look like?

 

For Sale:  Klipsch Musical sub.  CAUTION:  NOT to be used with Home Theater!

 

For Sale:  Klipsch Home Theater Sub:  Warning:  Will not work with music.

 

 

Does this sound ridiculous?

I've certainly heard the 2nd one though I don't think it was advertised as such.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

what about subs with integrated spotify/Airplay support? does that make them musical?  

I beg your pardon?  You are joking right?  I mean, I hope so, but I'm not a sub expert, so.....

 

 

conversely, subs with integrated hulu and netflix support would be considered "HT" subs, yes?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

what about subs with integrated spotify/Airplay support? does that make them musical?  

I beg your pardon?  You are joking right?  I mean, I hope so, but I'm not a sub expert, so.....

 

 

conversely, subs with integrated hulu and netflix support would be considered "HT" subs, yes?

 

I agree.  I have a social media sub with Facebook and a little camera so I can Instagram.   :ph34r:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess the first question would be for us to hear your definition of each?  How do you put one in one category or the other.  For me, If a unit can dig deep and be accurate in doing so, it would excel at each.

 

This question get's to the heart of the matter.  An accepted definition of one verses the other and their physical properties that clearly dine each.  Now, I will not argue that some subs sound better with music depending on your taste for music.  But, a well designed sub, ported or sealed when setup properly with the mains should sound good.

 

The peaks, ring and other things goes back to design and setup.  Trying to use a sub in a typical room without DSP/PEQ does not hold merit since the room is 50% of what you are hearing.  Today, many sub drivers have stronger motor and can be tuned lower which mitigates the issues of group delay and phase shifts that happen below tunning in vented system.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my home theater sub I want to hear enough detail to determine if the explosion was from Composition C-4 or dynamite rather than just a loud bang.  B)

Edited by Fjd
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I guess the first question would be for us to hear your definition of each?  How do you put one in one category or the other.  For me, If a unit can dig deep and be accurate in doing so, it would excel at each.

 

This question get's to the heart of the matter.  An accepted definition of one verses the other and their physical properties that clearly dine each.  Now, I will not argue that some subs sound better with music depending on your taste for music.  But, a well designed sub, ported or sealed when setup properly with the mains should sound good.

 

The peaks, ring and other things goes back to design and setup.  Trying to use a sub in a typical room without DSP/PEQ does not hold merit since the room is 50% of what you are hearing.  Today, many sub drivers have stronger motor and can be tuned lower which mitigates the issues of group delay and phase shifts that happen below tunning in vented system.

 

Joking aside, I agree.  Calibration of a system is also key.  I had peaks before calibration.  Many setups can benefit from tuning.  Source material matters beyond all belief too.  You could have the best system money can buy, but if you don't have a good source, no amount of processing can fix what isn't there.  

 

My R-115SW is great and I love it.  Having said that, it is by no means the best sub ever conceived by man.  (Even though Klipsch RULES!!!)  Yet after tuning/calibration with the rest of the system, my music sounds as though I am at the performance.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is diffrence

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

I find a 15" (or perhaps any size) subworks very well with music... and also with HT.

 

The trick for me as one who's importance lies more with music is that it needed to be controlled finessed into sounding as good as it could... and this somewhat compromised the HT experience because Music application (for me) is about control, and HT application is about output.

 

I do understand how some will say that (in direct radiation) a smaller OD driver will react much faster than a larger diameter driver, but I personally think they all can work very well.

Edited by Schu
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is pretty much believed by many that a smaller driver (8", 10" & 12") can respond quicker to complicated bass notes than say a 15" or 18."  If you want to see if your sub can accurately reproduce complex bass notes without stumbling over itself and sound sloppy try the double kick drum passage on One by Metallica see if it do it accurately.  Keep in mind the amplifier also has to have a high damping factor to be able to start and stop the woofer movement very quickly.

 

I competed in the sound quality portion of IASCA for a few years and never used anything larger than a 12" subwoofer, mostly 10" and usually in an isobarik or bandpass type enclosure.  Bass was fast and clean. The 12's I used were Dynaudio 30W 100's 4" V/C on these things.  Though the deepest bass came from a 1" MDF dual bandpass box loaded with four Vifa 10's clamshelled.  The Fs on them was like 24Hz although not tremendously efficient.  I used a high current HiFonics Series VIII Ulysses running them in parallel with a 1.5 ohm load.

 

Now all that being said I have two Velodyne HGS-15 subwoofers and even though they are 15's I certainly do not find them slow or sloppy at all.  The servo monitors cone movement at 1000's a times second to control the motion of the cone and they will dig into the teens.  They hang with the trio of La Scala's that they support.  I think they sound musical they are certainly accurate and precise.

 

It really depends on the quality of the subwoofer in question as I have heard 15's that were slow and sloppy, and I have heard some smaller driver subwoofers that sounded bad too.  The Carver cube subwas pretty amazing with the three 10's that generated some serious low end.

 

Very subjective topic.

Edited by Frzninvt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...