Expert Advice: Klipsch for Roland Piano

[Mallette]

Yes, this probably is most appropriate to Pro Audio, but there are not that many who frequent there and I want a lot of input.  First, I want to paste in my review of a performance I experienced last Saturday night in Texarkana.  This if from a city Facebook page for Texarkana:

 

"Well, it still hasn't worn off. What a masterful, totally riveting, tour de force of the past, present, and future of Boogie Woogie! George Buckner melded with John Tennison in a way that suggested they'd worked together for years...even though that was the first time they played together. Personally, hearing them play a couple of pieces featuring the "Swampoodle" bass line that I guarantee you'd recognize immediately...but wouldn't know that it originated in the Swampoodle Creek area of Texarkana, made me swell with Texarkana pride in our incredible music heritage. I am so tired of getting the feeling few really understand the place of Texarkana in American and world musical heritage. John is doing a lot to fix that and I am going to try to help. George has an illustrious Texarkana music family background and he plays with a local jazz group...I will find out where and report here as next time I am in town I will be there for sure. He is a master.

 

 

And, if all of the above weren't enough, a young man named James Norton was invited to play a couple of pieces at the end. I overheard someone say he was "...as good as Hendrix." I figured that was hype. Nope. Blindingly good, utter ownership of that guitar playing freely improvised 12 tone blues I assure you would have had Hendrix attention. And George stayed right with him all the way.

 

 

If you aren't having great musical experiences in Texarkana you are going to the right places."

 

So, here's the issue.  I recorded it.  Awful.  I didn't expect it to be particularly good as John was playing a Roland through a single speaker.  I didn't care for it to start with.  Not much in the high end, really tubby bass, generally crap by our standards.  However, his performance is so extraordinary I guess I figured it worthwhile.  Yes, I could have plugged in...but you guys know I am an acoustic recordist and loath to leave my comfort zone.  Since I'll likely do him again I'd best get over it. 

 

Anyway, the drummer sounded fantastic, but the Roland sounded like...what a f...king surprise, a recording of really godawful loudspeakers.  It was simply intolerable divorced from John's powerful presence.

 

So, the question is this:  What would be the best Klipsch solution?  John isn't rich, but he is a psychiatrist (young) and has thrown a bit of coin at his Roland and such...so I'd like to be able to help him with the sonics.  He really needs something good from C1 up that is still portable.  Tall order, I guess.

 

Thoughts, learned brothers?

 

Dave

[Mallette]

Well, hoped for some input, but went on my own.  If anyone wishes to I'd be happy to have some critique of my response.  Here is what I told my friend, the M.D.:

 

OK, John.  This is your audio doctor being straight.  

 

You need a speaker transplant. 

 

When I first heard your speaker at the rehearsal I didn't like it.  However, your performance is so good I simply tuned it out and listened to the music.  I am NOT an audiophile.  I am a music lover.  When I listen to 78s I hear nothing but music no matter what the condition of the disc.

 

However, when I record it is different.  When I play it back my ears are in pure analysis mode.  Problem is when I played my recording back I couldn't have tuned in to the music if I tried.  Without a visual reference the sound was terrible.  The drums made it worse as they were perfect sounding.   I want to location record you again, but I'll plug in next time.  I'd never done this before and will not again unless it's video.  Nice thing about video is that you have a visual reference which tends to cause you to both not expect full range sound and reminds you of why. 

 

Now, here is what I recommend.  Klipsch KI-396, brochure attached. 

 

By itself it will improve your sound output more than I can describe.  76 lbs, so a good folding equipment dolly is recommended.  Efficiency is 104db SPL at 1M, half-space anechoic with 2.83V input so not a lot of amplifier is required to bring pain to a hundred or more people.   An 11 lb. Crown XLS Class D amp has way more power than you'll ever need and a 200.00 or less is a heckuva a good match.  

 

Finally, when you are doing a really critical gig and want truly accurate full range sound you'll need to add a sub.  The KI-396 is down 10db at C1 (32hz) and more at A0 (27.5hz).  My playback experience with pianos is that getting a real piano sound from a recording is the hardest task in audio.  The recording has to be done with a great deal of skill, and the playback has to cover the range to A0 with no more than a 3db variance for it to truly sound accurate.  Frankly, I was surprised as until I ran some experiments I simply never thought of the piano as being bass dependent like a big pipe organ.  However, it's even more so as the rich harmonics all work together to create that piano magic.

 

That's why I was asking if the Roland used a sample set.  Not sure what the sample rates are but Hauptwerk uses 24/96 which is quite capable of capturing the harmonics of a piano.  Properly reproduced they are indistinguishable from a real piano only by truly golden ears (mine are more golden aged these days...but still pretty good) except that the pedal actions haven't be perfectly emulated yet. 

 

Your skills are so great they demand the best. 

 

Dave

Edited September 1, 2015 by Mallette

[babadono]

'Tis blasphemy but what about some homebrew BFM cabinets?

 And Dave could you have taken a direct out from the piano?

[Mallette]

Yes, sir, I could have.  However, I've never done that before as I am exclusively acoustic in my recording.  It's always been about acoustic instruments and their interaction with a space.  An acoustic time/space event in my language. 

 

However, John is going to be a colleague in my Regional Musical Heritage Center scheme and as, IMHO, the world's foremost expert in Boogie Woogie history and just as good in performing it I need to consider bending my rules.  Recording a loudspeaker, no matter how good, isn't a musical event.  I knew better, just ignored it.  Dummy.

 

Dave

[babadono]

Dave,

 Ok I get it, I think. You want to capture that 'live' feeling in your recordings. Totally cool, but hard to do.

[Mallette]

Impossible, IMHO, if electronics are involved, using microphones.  In the case of this speaker the guy was such a great performer I was able to ignore it until I was listening to audio only. 

 

Then I realized it wasn't just bad, it was awful.  Those piano samples arrived like victims of a transporter malfunction. 

 

Dave

[colterphoto1]

personally I'd not use Klipsch, in today's marketplace a powered loudspeaker like a QSC K12 offers so much more. Like modern subwoofers, mating the electronics with the speaker allows the designer to integrate active electronics like biamp crossovers and parametric eq inside the speaker, away from the musician end user. What the musician sees is a compact, easy to set up speaker that sounds like the instrument is intended. These speakers are worlds ahead of the first in the industry the Mackie. Lots of PA professionals use them as speakers on sticks, or as stage monitors. Plug in a XLR, 1/4 or two, they have built in mixing capabilities of two sources as well as some basic tone controls. Don't even need a mixer. Just one box will do the job. Looks clean on stage too. 

[wvu80]

I don't have any gear recommendations, Dave. 

 

I would suggest you trust your ears more than the recording playback, because most mic's "like" a certain frequency range and may not accurately be giving a good reproduction of what you heard live!.

 

I also agree, piano is the most difficult instrument to re-produce electronically.  It is my reference when doing critical listening with speakers.  If the gear can accurately reproduce piano, it should have no problems with other instruments.

[Mallette]

I would suggest you trust your ears more than the recording playback, because most mic's "like" a certain frequency range and may not accurately be giving a good reproduction of what you heard live!.

 

I do, and my mikes as well.  Matched pair of Ocktava ML-52s I've had for 20 years and know well.  They don't lie.

 

Dave

[wvu80]

I do, and my mikes as well. Matched pair of Ocktava ML-52s I've had for 20 years and know well. They don't lie.

 

Ah, very good then.

 

I figured you had just held your iPhone up to ear level. 

[Mallette]

Arghh...

 

Dave

[wvu80]

LOL!

 

In your defense Dave, I should have known better. 

[dtel]

I have to say after listening to the KI-396 for the last 11 days and the other 20+ days at the clubhouse they are amazing, My vote is easily the 396's, we played everything from old country to heavy metal with some blues and reggae at every volume and they could not have done better. Great bass even at low volumes and couldn't have been clearer. I have heard a lot of Klipsch setups and this is one of the best, easily. 

 

If you haven't heard them you don't know what your missing, it's a 3" driver for the mid/high frequency's and a ported 15" bass driver. It's shocking it really is, Kevin Harmon was there and said he was shocked, he is the guy who brought the KP 600's and has just about every pro setup Klipsch made and he was very impressed.      

[ClaudeJ1]

He just needs a good Super Heresy, not ported. I have one for sale.

Edited September 1, 2015 by ClaudeJ1

[Kent T]

I say a good Heresy HIP and a McIntosh MC 250 in bridged mono would improve that sound. 

[Mallette]

Went ahead and recommended the 396 as I don't think Heresies would generate the SPL he needs when playing outside.  

 

Dave

[ClaudeJ1]

Went ahead and recommended the 396 as I don't think Heresies would generate the SPL he needs when playing outside.  

 

Dave

good one. I was referring to a Super Heresy @around 100 db Spl/w with a sub. The 396 will outperform it, though, since it has a large format driver for the tweeter and a ported 15.

Edited September 14, 2015 by ClaudeJ1

[DrWho]

How loud does he play? Or how large are the venues?

 

I'm with Colter about moving away from Klipsch for pro audio needs. The KP396 simply lacks a ton of features that would benefit your friend quite a bit - and in terms of sound quality I'm not sure you're gaining much if anything over the K12.

 

Has your friend made a purchase yet? Another thing to consider is that the speaker is really more of an instrument in this application. Why not build something custom and make it part of his sound? Like what about a folded horn....one that literally folds up for portability?

 

You're going to have a hard time finding a portable pro audio solution that will dig down to ~30Hz for your C1 note. The 396 and K12 certainly won't...