Jump to content

I'd like to thank Bob Crites (my warranty department)


Deang

Recommended Posts

Regarding the days of yore on the forum....

 

Yes, they were interesting.  I'll admit that I was a bit of a jerk on occasion but was always mindful of Amy looking over my shoulder.  Why make her life complicated by having to deal with me?

 

Also, I have a good limit switch.  I know when to pull the plug when things get nasty.  Hell, I've been active on this forum for over 15 years and only have 1676 posts! 

 

    

Edited by John Warren
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


    Greetings sir!


    The green plot is something I've been noodling here.  The K77M can actually remarkably good at higher sound pressure levels "if" you use the green curve.

    To use the green curve however requires other changes to occur and that's where things get very interesting.


    it's possible however to take the Klipschorn to a much better place without having to take a second mortgage out on your house.

    More on that later.

 

 

 

we like to take out mortgages on the house to make the HF section sound better... so noodling really isn't necessary.

Edited by Schu
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

    Greetings sir!

    The green plot is something I've been noodling here.  The K77M can actually remarkably good at higher sound pressure levels "if" you use the green curve.

    To use the green curve however requires other changes to occur and that's where things get very interesting.

    it's possible however to take the Klipschorn to a much better place without having to take a second mortgage out on your house.

    More on that later.

 

 

 

we like to take out mortgages on the house to make the HF section sound better... so noodling really isn't necessary.

 

 

Perhaps, but imagine if you can get there WITHOUT having to ask the significant other for HER approval.

Edited by John Warren
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Schu, your Heritage is as good as it's going to get unless you jump on the driver/horn merry-go-round. I've done much of that, and I've found that I'm very much okay with the nostalgia of stock. Performance is plenty good enough, and sounds pretty damn good straight up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Life in the old days,

As we reminisce on things of the past, those who still have heritage speakers and are trying to get the most out of their stock components with new and improved parts, only to run foul of the blue line.

Will new and better capacitor provide the ends we seek, will it overcome our expectations! Or will our perception continue to draw us down the alley. Don't get me wrong I too am like many other, but this turn of events has made me pause to think, do I want to continue on this path to madness.

I need a k77 round back with ancio magnet, then I can pull the chain, and wave, goodbye to this madness.

Errol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've built most everything every different way possible. What I haven't built, I've heard. I build the way I do because the methodology sounds best to me. What sounds "best" are the simple builds, and they get even better if you can afford to maximize the parts quality. If you go with films, then you are going to have to take midrange down 3dB, no more, no less -- that's what seems to sound best and there is almost universal agreement on this. I have a set right now that I built for Dave Beeman burning in with my LaScalas. I hadn't moved down a tap yet or added the resistor. I pulled out some of the best recordings I have, and asked the kids if they would be willing to listen to a few songs before we started the movie we wanted to watch.

Okay, ages 15, 12, and 9. This is the last "set", everyone else has moved out. :) So, into the Oppo went the Moody Blues.

"That's old."

"Yeah, I suppose it is."

"Can you turn it down a little, it's hurting my ears."

"Sure."

"It's still hurting my ears, why is it doing that?"

"It's complicated. Give me a minute."

I added the resistor, dropped a tap, and restarted the song."

"That's a lot better, what did you do?"

"It's complicated. What do you think?"

"It's old stuff, but they're pretty good."

"No, I mean the sound?"

"It's not hurting my ears anymore,"

"Can I turn it up a little?"

"Okay, but not too loud."

"You can turn it up more than that if you want (it is now much louder than when we started).

"Does that hurt your ears?"

"No, can we listen to something new?"

The 9 year old has been speaking for the group, and the rest have been shaking their heads as she spoke.

I decided to be mean. I put in Van Halen's first recording, set it to "Eruption", along with a volume to a spot that I knew would make their hearts jump out of their chests.

It was loud. There was a lot of laughing and carrying on.

"You're crazy Dad, that was awesome."

I've done this same test with the other kids, parents and my next door neighbor. My two older sons, who are both half deaf musicians, and during that period when I could barely move -- spent a long day tolerating me as I forced them into listening to different builds, where I would just alligator clip the parts together. I also had another popular build in the room that day, built nearly identically as it can be purchased. The volume control never moved. I started with the resistive design and ended with it. Both the Jensens and Jupiters were in the house, along with various film types. The resistive design was set to -6dB. Austin and Ethan thought it sounded good. To me, the sound had that analytical presentation that I was so accustomed to, along with the slightly detectable "mark of the beast", or "sizzle" that seems to surround everything in the music -- uber cheap POS plastic metallized polypropylenes. If you're going to go on the cheap, use something that has a reputation for sounding half way decent.

Ethan liked the sound with the Jensen AAs, and Austin's like me, not having a strong preference between the Jupiter or Jensen build. Both thought second best was the Type AA PPT Theta build with the resistor/output dropped 3dB.

After hearing the good stuff, it's hard to be patient and sit through the inexpensive builds - but the Daytons really do sound pretty decent, especially considering their cost. They have some of that "tizz" just like the other inexpensive capacitors, but it's offset by their somewhat warm and open quality.

Edited by Crankysoldermeister
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure does - another one of those things that didn't catch on and I have no idea why. Were people put off because JBL, Vandersteen and Avantgarde does it, or because they didn't trust my soldering. Maybe the idea of having a battery sitting in a crossover is just too stressful. Maybe I should have just stayed at it, until people got comfortable with it, I don't know, I offered it for almost a year, and with exception of the first few who jumped in there with me, there wasn't anyone.

http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/hornloudspeaker-downloads-en.html?file=tl_files/avantgarde/downloads/service/downloads/en/cpc_engl.pdf

I was bemoaning the fact that the forum culture had changed so much to a customer, and he responded by saying;

"As far as the forum and heritage, many are now in their 60's, 70's, etc and passing away. With the new focus on Home theater, there does not appear to be many in the younger generations replacing the original demand for Heritage line speakers. More and more, I see parts floating without a home, and lots of Klipschorns and la scala's available for sale at low prices - apparently far in excess of interested buyers, and that is a real shame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure does - another one of those things that didn't catch on and I have no idea why. Were people put off because JBL, Vandersteen and Avantgarde does it, or because they didn't trust my soldering. Maybe the idea of having a battery sitting in a crossover is just too stressful. Maybe I should have just stayed at it, until people got comfortable with it, I don't know, I offered it for almost a year, and with exception of the first few who jumped in there with me, there wasn't anyone.

http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/hornloudspeaker-downloads-en.html?file=tl_files/avantgarde/downloads/service/downloads/en/cpc_engl.pdf

I was bemoaning the fact that the forum culture had changed so much to a customer, and he responded by saying;

"As far as the forum and heritage, many are now in their 60's, 70's, etc and passing away. With the new focus on Home theater, there does not appear to be many in the younger generations replacing the original demand for Heritage line speakers. More and more, I see parts floating without a home, and lots of Klipschorns and la scala's available for sale at low prices - apparently far in excess of interested buyers, and that is a real shame.

 

Do you think that many people (those in the market for a new crossover anyway) would prefer to spend the money for that "Nth" percent of more improvement and not feel that they have to open up the cabinet to check a battery at some point even if it might last for years?

 

As far as the age of Heritage owners I think that the market will find its feet again.  I'm usually wrong about any predictions I make or at least things unfold in a different way than what I expect.  I think this forum can be a strong influence on the ongoing interest in Heritage but it will take the continuing presence of those more knowledgeable than me and their willingness to contribute in spite of what they perceive as a lack of excitement.  For myself, I find this particular thread extremely interesting and I'm learning something.   Thanks!!   Keep it coming!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Yes. You have it. Your first paragraph sums it up nicely.

The .40mH coil is inserted between the primary cap and the squawker - it creates a band pass for the midrange driver and adds a little bit of resistance. I had John Warren run some tests for this, which showed that the part really wasn't doing much. Funny that you should bring that up because I just ordered a pair for my Jupiter AA build -- and I'll be listening to that again to see what I think.

Right; if you go down 3dB on the Autotransformer, you have to cut the capacitor value in half to keep the crossover point the same. The other way would be to add a 15 ohm resistor in parallel with the mid driver. This accomplishes the same thing, but you don't have to mess with the cap. Look at it like this: the reflected impedance back through the autotransformer is roughly between 60-64 ohms. How did that happen? Well, you have a 16 ohm driver, and with that driver on tap 4 (-3dB), the reflected impedance back through the autotransformer doubles, and it now sits at around 30-32 ohms. Drop another tap (-6dB), and it doubles again, 60-64 ohms. Down another (-9dB), and we are now hovering around 128 ohms. The capacitor value is based on the crossover point you want, along with the impedance value at the crossover point - they are locked together. If you use a 15 ohm resistor in parallel with the driver, it's basically an 8 ohm driver now, and you should be able to see how that impacts the impedance with the taps.

As for your other questions, I'm still struggling with the results of the find myself. I mean, I understand conceptually what happened, but don't really understand it at the engineering level, which is where I have to be to adequately answer your question.

OK, I've been looking at this again and thought I'd see if I understand how this works.  I was just going to ask because I don't immediately see how the impedance is impacted with the taps.   I'm looking at a standard AA network but I'm going to drop taps to attenuate in 3dB steps (from tap 4 to 3 for -6dB) while leaving the capacitor alone but adding a 15 ohm resistor in parallel with the driver that gives me an 8 ohm driver.  This is where my ignorance shows... where do I go from here to drop -9dB?  I'll take a guess and you can tell me if I'm right or how very wrong I am.  Please correct me as needed!

 

So... would I drop the tap from 3 to 2 for -9db and add a 8 ohm resistor parallel to the existing 15 ohm resistor so now I will be showing effectively a 4 ohm driver?  ...and to go to -12dB I'd drop the tap from 2 to 1 and add a 4 ohm resistor (now I'd have three resistors... a 15, 8, and 4 ohm resistor in parallel to the 16 ohm driver) so it would be a 2 ohm driver?  It looks to me like this would offset the impedance change caused by the change of the autoformer tap.  Am I on track?

Edited by muel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you think that many people (those in the market for a new crossover anyway) would prefer to spend the money for that "Nth" percent of more improvement and not feel that they have to open up the cabinet to check a battery at some point even if it might last for years?

 

I've actually thought about putting an external battery holder on mine and running the wires through the cabinet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Yes. You have it. Your first paragraph sums it up nicely.

The .40mH coil is inserted between the primary cap and the squawker - it creates a band pass for the midrange driver and adds a little bit of resistance. I had John Warren run some tests for this, which showed that the part really wasn't doing much. Funny that you should bring that up because I just ordered a pair for my Jupiter AA build -- and I'll be listening to that again to see what I think.

Right; if you go down 3dB on the Autotransformer, you have to cut the capacitor value in half to keep the crossover point the same. The other way would be to add a 15 ohm resistor in parallel with the mid driver. This accomplishes the same thing, but you don't have to mess with the cap. Look at it like this: the reflected impedance back through the autotransformer is roughly between 60-64 ohms. How did that happen? Well, you have a 16 ohm driver, and with that driver on tap 4 (-3dB), the reflected impedance back through the autotransformer doubles, and it now sits at around 30-32 ohms. Drop another tap (-6dB), and it doubles again, 60-64 ohms. Down another (-9dB), and we are now hovering around 128 ohms. The capacitor value is based on the crossover point you want, along with the impedance value at the crossover point - they are locked together. If you use a 15 ohm resistor in parallel with the driver, it's basically an 8 ohm driver now, and you should be able to see how that impacts the impedance with the taps.

As for your other questions, I'm still struggling with the results of the find myself. I mean, I understand conceptually what happened, but don't really understand it at the engineering level, which is where I have to be to adequately answer your question.

OK, I've been looking at this again and thought I'd see if I understand how this works.  I was just going to ask because I don't immediately see how the impedance is impacted with the taps.   I'm looking at a standard AA network but I'm going to drop taps to attenuate in 3dB steps (from tap 4 to 3 for -6dB) while leaving the capacitor alone but adding a 15 ohm resistor in parallel with the driver that gives me an 8 ohm driver.  This is where my ignorance shows... where do I go from here to drop -9dB?  I'll take a guess and you can tell me if I'm right or how very wrong I am.  Please correct me as needed!

 

So... would I drop the tap from 3 to 2 for -9db and add a 8 ohm resistor parallel to the existing 15 ohm resistor so now I will be showing effectively a 4 ohm driver?  ...and to go to -12dB I'd drop the tap from 2 to 1 and add a 4 ohm resistor (now I'd have three resistors... a 15, 8, and 4 ohm resistor in parallel to the 16 ohm driver) so it would be a 2 ohm driver?  It looks to me like this would offset the impedance change caused by the change of the autoformer tap.  Am I on track?

 

 

So am I taking the right approach to adding resistors to change the attenuation on my standard AA networks?  I'd like to experiment with a couple of different horns and attenuation on some standard AA's and I'd like to buy the correct resistor values.  If I accidentally change the crossover I'm afraid I could damage a driver.   Dean?  

 

I'm also hoping John will hop back on here and share some more... seems like he had more to say!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll come back to this later today - you're over-complicating things a bit.

You should never lower the output of the midrange more than 3dB. You still want a relatively decent frequency response - you don't want a huge hole in the middle. Technically, when you drop the middle, you should drop the tweeter too. The middle and end response will be flatter, while the bass will be relationally higher. Most find a 3dB drop in tweeter output to be too much, so they leave it alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have enough parts that I'm going to wind up with an extra pair of La Scalas that I will shuffle around to free up a pair of Heresy's for the oldest kid (thanks Dad).  SO I want to experiment with the Fastracs and Eliptracs to see what I want to use where.  I'll be playing with the AA networks using K55v or K55m's on Fastracs and the BMS 4592nd-mid driver with the Eliptracs.  The DeanG/Aletheia super AA networks will remain right where they are but I might try another horn with them as well.  Quarter Pie bin construction has been paused again until weather prevents any further outdoor projects.

 

Besides just wanting to play around with this stuff I want to understand more of how it works.  

 

So with the BMS driver I have the mids attenuated -12dB on the Super AA networks.  I use AL's ALK transformer tweeter attenuator for the Beyma tweeter to attenuate about -3dB.  I'm thinking I won't need to attenuate the highs if I go with the K77 or the Crites.    When I try the Fastracs I'm thinking I will only attenuate the mids -3db but I think I might have done more for a while... don't recall now.  This is where that transformer with the -1dB steps might be nice.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Hey, it's The Doctor - welcome back John. Before I agree with you, I want to know what the green curve is :)

 

Greetings sir! 

 

The green plot is something I've been noodling here.  The K77M can actually remarkably good at higher sound pressure levels "if" you use the green curve.

 

To use the green curve however requires other changes to occur and that's where things get very interesting.

 

it's possible however to take the Klipschorn to a much better place without having to take a second mortgage out on your house.

 

More on that later.  

 

 

Did I miss it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Hey, it's The Doctor - welcome back John. Before I agree with you, I want to know what the green curve is :)

 

Greetings sir! 

 

The green plot is something I've been noodling here.  The K77M can actually remarkably good at higher sound pressure levels "if" you use the green curve.

 

To use the green curve however requires other changes to occur and that's where things get very interesting.

 

it's possible however to take the Klipschorn to a much better place without having to take a second mortgage out on your house.

 

More on that later.  

 

 

Did I miss it?

 

 

The suspense is killing me!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Hey, it's The Doctor - welcome back John. Before I agree with you, I want to know what the green curve is :)

 

Greetings sir! 

 

The green plot is something I've been noodling here.  The K77M can actually remarkably good at higher sound pressure levels "if" you use the green curve.

 

To use the green curve however requires other changes to occur and that's where things get very interesting.

 

it's possible however to take the Klipschorn to a much better place without having to take a second mortgage out on your house.

 

More on that later.  

 

 

Did I miss it?

 

 

The suspense is killing me!

 

 

Ditto.... :ph34r:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...