Mallette Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Post #60 by Chris A. gets my coveted TRVTH Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Dave, maybe I don't understand where you are coming from... surely you have heard a system or component and thought that "A" is clearer than "B." Absolutely. Also generally know precisely why...one of them is crappy design or something is wrong with it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 The fact that reviewers seem to exaggerate and embellish their experience and the drastic improvement they are hearing can be irritating and set off the BS alarm but I can understand this to a small degree that they are talking about minuscule improvements (changes) in the grand scheme of the listening experience but they are zooming into that micro view of that small 1% chunk of what they are (or not) hearing. The rest of us are thinking about the experience as a whole while the reviewers are honing in on some very tiny changes which makes it seem that they are really blowing things out of proportion. Add to this the fact that THEN they seem compelled to try to explain "WHY" which is where things really fall apart and make them suspect to the rest of us as they proceed to show us their lack of understanding of some aspect of the science. This also doesn't make their observation BS but it does make you question what else might they be wrong about and impinge on your trust of that persons authority on music systems. Some thoughtful comments there. But, I can't endorse those kind of reviewers for very simple and logical reasons. When a reviewer of DACs has no earthly idea how they even work, what they do, what the concepts are, he soon talks himself into pure baloney based on his misunderstandings. Then others, who also don't understand, believe what he is saying and begin to confirm it by hearing what he hears. Soon, you have a fad based on nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 Compared to an LP system of 1975, distortion and noise in the signal are down by at least 100X in a 2015 digital system. That's got to be good... As for speakers, modern ones are cheaper and better. You know, the vaunted Dynaco A-25 had nothing but a single cap on the tweeter as a crossover. Today, a far less expensive speaker (in 1975 dollars) has a 6-element crossover, and wave guides, and a better enclosure... You get more technology per dollar (on average) on speakers than you got in 1975. The drivers are better, the crossovers are better and the cabinets are better. And all of that is cheaper. This really IS the Golden Age of audio. One of the reasons why I posted in this thread is that the OP is basically correct and uncomfortably close to a truth--in that a lot of dyed-in-the-wool audiophiles from the 50s-80s really wish that it weren't true. Joe perhaps overstates a bit--and so do others on the opposite side of the coin here in terms of differences in listening quality vs. dollars spent. Digital hasn't got anywhere near the type of costs associated with the hardware that analog did in its heyday, to produce comparable results. Joe is right about the current state of digital over analog (the hardware - not the products pushed out by Big Music companies) - I find a lot more is right in today's world once you subtract the issues associated with really bad mastering of CDs since 1983 vs. phonograph records (due entirely to the limitations of vinyl as a medium). Most people don't realize how bad it really is on the source music side by the people involved--not the technology. Class D amplifiers have disrupted other entry-level and consumer grade SS amplifiers and are proceeding to disrupt even the most expensive amplifiers (per the Christensen Disruptive Technology model that I mentioned above). Richard Small published the "Thiele-Small parameters" papers in 1972 and it took probably 10 years before the loudspeaker manufacturers as a group paid attention to their woofer/box designs because of that. Signal analyzers still cost $20K (in then-year dollars) in the early 1980s and required some education to use properly. Nowadays, much software is either less than $500 or free to do the same levels of basic time data series analysis as those done in the 1980s, and the hardware is a laptop, a cheap calibration microphone and a microphone stand. Developmental testing outdoors is good enough to beat the levels of analysis done in the 1980s, hands down. Currently, Klippel's R&D system (data acquisition and test suite of hardware and software) can start at $6K and goes upwards toward $100K for all modules/hardware. My guess is that most loudspeaker manufacturers of the "boutique" variety (i.e., excluding Harmon, Klipsch, Bose, EAW, etc. ) don't even have a basic level Klippel R&D system, much less a Klippel QC system for checking units as they go out the door. In other words - most every loudspeaker manufacturer smaller than the big manufacturers haven't invested in their test equipment enough to know what they are actually doing/putting out the door. That has to change for these small manufacturers to come up to the current ISO loudspeaker standards. Other than loudspeakers, digital media/source, and amplification, room acoustics and room analysis software has come a great distance, as well as preamp/processors that do the digital stream decoding, time delays for each channel, and basic room correction software/firmware (e.g., Audyssey) which is light years ahead of where we were even in the 1990s. Hi-Fi today--even at modest levels of investment--is really hi-fi compared to equivalent investments in constant year dollars of past. Even MP3/personal music players (including cell phones) are a lot better in terms of fidelity that the most basic audio gear of the 50s-80s. In short, the OP has a point. What's not the same is the quality of the source material (music) which has been trashed even further than phonograph records allow. That situation has been with us since 1983 when CDs were first released and the mastering engineers told their clients that they could have it louder than their competition. That's why I believe so many people have retreated back to vinyl (even with its known issues). What's interesting, however, is that music released today on vinyl has real issues compared to releases before MP3s and multi-band compressors (1991) came into being. That's what we should be paying attention to, IMHO--the technical hi-fi quality of the distributed music itself. Chris Great stuff Mr. Chris man. I don't know what we can do about the sad state of program material. I still very much treasure and enjoy playing my old LPs from the 50s and 60s. But, most of my music is on CD and there is some clear differences in fidelity. The old LPs have their own wonderful vibe, but the new stuff is the lower in distortion and noise. I like them both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Every recording I own including acoustics made in the early 20th century has MUSIC on it. If the music is good and the distortion, noise, or whatever is not addressable I simply use the most sophisticated noise reduction in the known universe, my brain, to completely eliminate it and listen to the music. When Pine Top intones on the opening of his 1928 recording "This is Pine Top, and I'm gonna play my boogie woogie for your..." I am THERE in 1928. Would I like to have Pine Top in DSD in a surround recording made in accordance with my principles? Absolutely...but that isn't going to happen...at least on this plane of existence. While I am hear, need to deal with reality and the reality is that the vast majority of the greatest music remains on old or obsolete formats. You can do without 90% of the finest performances ever heard or you can deal with it. Those who seek nothing but response flat from DC to light, noise so low an elephant couldn't hear it, and zero distortion are all incomprehensible to me. No problem with it, but I just don't get it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Might add that if I were stuck with the recordings of the digital era only I'd starve to death musically. Dave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 Yeah, I hear ya Mallette man. I don't fidget over distortion when I play the music either. I get lost in the music and I can do it with a radio, a stereo, MP3 player, or whatever I have on hand. The distortion thing, the HiFi thing, is just an associated hobby. I do like gear. I enjoy a beautiful made amp or turntable and if I had millions of dollars to waste frivolously, I'd buy a lot of stupid stuff that looks beautiful. Why not? But, I have a practical side too, which is always trying to understand what's under the hood. I hope no one thinks I am attacking their decision to buy super expensive DACs. I'm not. If you like it and can buy it, who cares? I just wanted to celebrate that digital has massively reduced the entry price of GREAT HiFi! Any guy who can cough up $500 can have a superb sounding HiFi rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 If you like it and can buy it, who cares? Amen! No problem with that. I would do likewise with unlimited funds. Except on speakers since you can't buy anything better than Klipsch. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 Oh, no doubt, Mr. Mallette Man! Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 (edited) Audio isn't a competition... unless your a certain type of personality. There are many that tout that "This unit beat that unit"... who cares. "This unit" is what I am listening to and thats all that matters. Edited September 24, 2015 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 AR's and all the acoustic suspension designs "back in the day" could deliver an excellent musical experience when played loud. However, the more you turned them down the more the music seemed to recede. It was these designs that cause the loudness compensation circuits to be almost ubiquitous in the 60s and later. Efficient speakers, especially horns, suffer much less from this effect. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 I don't listen at anywhere near the levels I see people here quote. Mostly 85db or so is my comfort level. I want my hearing to last a lifetime! I got Klipsch to use at normal volume. Very few cd or LP have more than 12db dynamic range. Petty much even a radio speaker will cover that. But yeah, I get that you can blast the neighborhood to kingdom come with a Khorn!!!!lol!!! Rock on!! Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 As I listen to a very wide range of material I have recordings with extremely wide dynamic range. Pipe organ in particular can range from scarcely audible to shaking the house without touching the volume control. Uniformly loud is boring, but wide dynamic range is exciting. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzog Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Dynamics in the sense of the speaker being able to play from the softest to the loudest passages on a piece is a definite strength of horns. You don't have to play them loudly to hear the speed and lack of distortion in dynamic passages. After owning horns, I won't go back to "conventional" designs. I don't listen very loud at all, but they are the only thing for me that captures the emotion (dynamics) of music. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 HOLY SMOKES! I just was searching for something and came upon a web site called audiokarma. Man, there a millions of hard core audio nuts over there! I venture to say there's not a product or subject in audio that isn't somewhere a thread there. They even have a special kipsch "korner" section. crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Yeah, jo56, it's a big one. More diversity than I really need. I am a devoted hornhead. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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