Paducah Home Theater Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I think rf-7's are way too much speaker for surrounds myself. I mean if you got tons of room and money sure why not. But why you are at it you better buy an amp too. Cause four rf-7 plus other speakers will start getting very hard for the receiver to handle. You're starting to sound like the guys you make fun of who say bigger more efficient speakers needs a more powerful amp. As long as you cross them over at the same frequency, I don't see why RF-7ii's wouldn't be easier to drive than inefficient surrounds. The problem is that once you have them, you're probably going to want to cross them over lower and play them louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Lol. So here's my thought on that. I know matter how big of speakers I have will always treat them as small with a 60hz or above crossover. I have subs for a reason. But I'm betting someone that buys rf-7's will most definitely want to run them full range. In fact I know of a few guys that try to run all speakers full range. Which I think is just crazy unless you never go loud at all. Edited October 21, 2015 by Scrappydue 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercedesBerater Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I tried running my 7's as full range / large With no sub & with the sub helping .... I just couldnt get it to sound right. The receiver can't do it. And eight 10" woofers still just don't have the impact as the sub! When I have amps- yes, I'll try it again. Just for fun. But I think still Small with an 80hz XO is best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I agree, keep them at small. From time to time (depending on content) I'll throw the RF-7's on large just for fun. U2 Rattle & Hum (an older 5.1 disc) has some extra punch when set to large, but it can tend to get muddy in parts & lack precision (when compared to small). Nothing permanent, just mixing things up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) Lol. So here's my thought on that. I know matter how big of speakers I have will always treat them as small with a 60hz or above crossover. I have subs for a reason. But I'm betting someone that buys rf-7's will most definitely want to run them full range. In fact I know of a few guys that try to run all speakers full range. Which I think is just crazy unless you never go loud at all. One of the coolest scenes I've experienced was Ironman 2 on a system that was crossed over at 30 maybe 40 hz, basically when Whiplash cut the cars in half. Just real nice. He had a Marantz 5 channel amp, British speakers, I forget the name, they were the platinum model. Only had a single 15" sub. Sounded friggin amazing. Having surrounds that did the same would be awesome too but yeah it's going to drain some juice. Edited October 22, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
007nco Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 007 - at low listening levels the receiver sounds plenty fine. The speakers just ask for too much when those big woofers start moving when listening level is turned up & movies have action sequences. If I switch the receiver to pure direct Stereo - it does fine.... But THAT still has its limits even when XO to subwoofer at 80hz It's almost like the sound clarity falls apart & it's just noise with a rhythm instead of crystal clear, pronounced, and controlled music. Makes sense, just a lot of mass to move. I'm still at the tweak, listen, adjust, re-listen phase. I discovered my own hearing by far surpasses the "auto-tune" feature of the Onkyo itself. It was good for initial starting point but did some weird settings that as I tune by my own ear look and make more sense, balance, XO points and levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
007nco Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) I think rf-7's are way too much speaker for surrounds myself. I mean if you got tons of room and money sure why not. But why you are at it you better buy an amp too. Cause four rf-7 plus other speakers will start getting very hard for the receiver to handle. You're starting to sound like the guys you make fun of who say bigger more efficient speakers needs a more powerful amp. As long as you cross them over at the same frequency, I don't see why RF-7ii's wouldn't be easier to drive than inefficient surrounds. The problem is that once you have them, you're probably going to want to cross them over lower and play them louder. Lol, I don't believe one can have too much clean power. Control, dampening in addition to volume, little things Funny, but as it seems to my ear I did experimenting with running the towers full range (lol, thanks Scrappy! gotta test the limits I suppose) tonight. The auto set-up on the Onkyo had them at 40z,; which was fine and clear as loud as I cared to try it (80 on their volume scale) Books, and curios started vibrating off their shelves... time to move the shelves was my opinion. I'm testing them at full range now watching the new Mad Max movie, so far good and maybe as I just have the one sub, these can help that bass image stabilization. Thoughts? Edited October 23, 2015 by 007nco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
007nco Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 I tried running my 7's as full range / large With no sub & with the sub helping .... I just couldnt get it to sound right. The receiver can't do it. And eight 10" woofers still just don't have the impact as the sub! When I have amps- yes, I'll try it again. Just for fun. But I think still Small with an 80hz XO is best. So far pretty happy with the capacity on my amp on the current 7.1 arrangement. No clipping or heat build up. I'll see if any changes in the current full range set up now that I have a baseline to compare to. This monster weighs a tick under 50lbs though so it outta have a little muscle to it. Specs on it: Amplifier Section Power Output 0.05% (20 Hz20 kHz, Half power) All Channels 135 W (8 Ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, 2 channels driven, FTC) 160 W (6 Ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7%, 2 channels driven, FTC) Dynamic Power 300 W (3 ohms, Front) 250 W (4 ohms, Front) 150 W (8 ohms, Front) THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise) 0.08% (20 Hz-20 kHz, Half power) Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 ohms) Input Sensitivity and Impedance 200 mV/47 k-ohms (Line) 2.5 mV/47 k-ohms (Phono MM) Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance 200 mV/470 Ohms (Line Out) Phono (MM) 2.5 mV/47 k-ohms Maximum RCA Output Level and Impedance 4.6 V/470 Ohms (Line Out) Rated XLR Output Level and Impedance 400 mV/470 Ohms (Pre Out) Maximum XLR Output Level and Impedance 9.2 V/470 Ohms (Pre Out) Phono Overload 70 mV (MM, 1 kHz, 0.5%) Frequency Response 5 Hz-100 kHz/+1 dB, -3 dB (Direct Mode) Tone Control ±10 dB, 20 Hz (Bass) ±10 dB, 20 kHz (Treble) Signal-to-Noise Ratio 110 dB (Line, IHF-A) 80 dB (Phono MM, IHF-A) Speaker Impedance 4 ohms16 ohms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
007nco Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 look into surge x. they are supposed to be great units. couple other comparable brands. everything else is just something that looks really pretty but doesn't actually protect anything. Thanks again Scrappy. I got a SurgeX SX1115 for next to free 8+1 outlet, 15A that should do the duty well it appears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 ..... I'm testing them at full range now watching the new Mad Max movie, so far good ... OK.... some here think I'm crazy & I am (in all things. lol). But I gotta ask. How was the opening sequence of MAD MAX for you with Atmos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
007nco Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 ..... I'm testing them at full range now watching the new Mad Max movie, so far good ... OK.... some here think I'm crazy & I am (in all things. lol). But I gotta ask. How was the opening sequence of MAD MAX for you with Atmos? Still no ceiling speakers yet! lol, I research sometimes too much. Very glad I got this disc though, sounds amazing and 75% of the movie is crazy desert chases and explosions, what's not to enjoy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Well, what are you waiting for... hurry up (lol). I forgot your were still considering the CDT 3800's. For me MM is the Atmos Demo disc. Curious to learn of your impressions. when you get everything dialed in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
007nco Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Well, what are you waiting for... hurry up (lol). I forgot your were still considering the CDT 3800's. For me MM is the Atmos Demo disc. Curious to learn of your impressions. when you get everything dialed in. I think I bumped myself to the 5800's, pick up 3db sensitivity, but studying the passive XO on them.... While I'm doing sheetrock work and running cable, the 2nd SW115 will go in. Wonder if anyone will notice the guest bedroom closet will be just a little narrower? lol The 7502's are double the power. Don't know that there is that much energy on the overhead channels. Thoughts Nismo? Edited October 23, 2015 by 007nco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Either the 5800 or 3800 would be great 8" in-ceiling options. Others use the CDT 5650-C ll... 6.5" option with the same wide dispersion capability & is similar in price to the 3800. Some could argue the benefit of a fuller range speaker (the 5800), but since they are basically performing surround duty, there's not a lot of full range content that gets sent to them. I do see the 5650's get recommended for Atmos. FuzzyDog has the 5650's installed, you might want to check with him on his impressions: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/158099-fds-dolby-atmos-ht-design-build-thread/page-2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Some could argue the benefit of a fuller range speaker (the 5800), but since they are basically performing surround duty, there's not a lot of full range content that gets sent to them. Greg Russell, re-recording mixer for Transformers: Age of Extinction: "what's also significant is to have full-range surrounds that don't wimp out when you pan things like helicopters to them. The sound retains its rich, deep character." "beware of lighting fixtures; we're moving a lot of air, so anything loose is going to rattle!" Brett Crockett, Dolby's Director of Sound Research: "an ideal Atmos system includes full-range speakers all around, including the overheads, to maintain a consistent timbre as objects move throughout the soundfield." Dolby home specs: "Dolby Atmos audio is mixed using discrete, full-range audio objects that may move around anywhere in three-dimensional space. With this in mind, overhead speakers should complement the frequency response, output, and power-handling capabilities of the listener-level speakers. Choose overhead speakers that are timbre matched as closely as possible to the primary listener-level speakers. Anybody with large mains doing 5650's for Atmos needs to be doing 5800's in my opinion. There is a minimal upcharge and you're making the effort to install them already anyway. Just zero to lose other than a few bucks but potentially quite a bit of frequency response to gain. You're used to listening to the modules, which blocks all the bass. No you're not hearing any full range signals. Ceiling speakers can reproduce lower frequencies, and if you're making the effort already, I just don't see why you wouldn't want to squeeze all you can out of them especially when the difference in price is so minimal. Edited October 23, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzydog Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I do see the 5650's get recommended for Atmos. FuzzyDog has the 5650's installed, you might want to check with him on his impressions: Still need new receiver to get Atmos up and running, but they sure look nice up there on the ceiling. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
007nco Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 Great points and info. I'll need one set of side plates to match the overhead choice. Getting close to decision time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercedesBerater Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I am doing the cdt5800 With Klipsch in ceiling steel boxes. It's not a big bump in cost- and why take the risk of having too small a speaker of the sound overhead is massive. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) I recommended that all 3 would be great options to consider (my comments had nothing to do with the fact I use modules). Jay L (from Klipsch) & many others have also mentioned that the 5650 would perform great in an Atmos configuration. I suggested all 3 & left it for 007nco to decide which option, size & budget best fits his needs best. I'm familiar with the panel assembled to discuss the topic you referred to, it was from over a year ago, I have even quoted excerpts from the same panel myself. Brett Crockett (from Dolby) mentioned full range, timber matched is good for any configuration (Atmos or not). But, Crockett also mentioned that Atmos is very forgiving & flexible with speaker choice & placement. He also mentioned that (since Atmos is still new) sound mixers were hesitant to place full range content to surrounds. And in regards to the quote: "beware of lighting fixtures; we're moving a lot of air, so anything loose is going to rattle!" That was in reference to Greg Russell (sound mixer for Transformers AoE) listening to small monitor speakers (not in-ceiling). But even then, the guy who mixed Transformers, a smaller monitor option was very effective with Atmos. All 3 options I mentioned & 007 was considering would be great. Edited October 23, 2015 by Nismo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I am doing the cdt5800 With Klipsch in ceiling steel boxes. It's not a big bump in cost- and why take the risk of having too small a speaker of the sound overhead is massive. Yeah if you were doing a house full of them for distributed background music, maybe you'd want to scrimp and get the 5650's, especially if you had hired an installer and were paying full retail. For 2-4 of them for Atmos at street price and doing it yourself, I don't see the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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