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kapsnb01

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Ok,

 

CF4 crossovers rebuilt by DeanG, breaking them in as we speak (I'm not a big break-in guy, but I do notice a difference after a few days).

 

Question, has anyone been able to source speaker grill cloth that is similar in color to the graphite used on the CF4's?  Parts express seems to have black or gray.

 

My CF4's are fine, but I want to re-do the grill on my KV4/C7 hybrid...

 

So, for those who might be interested.  The KV4 drivers, horn, and even the crossover/speaker terminals drop right into a C7 cabinet.  The volume is really close between the two also.

 

In my case, I wanted an oak center channel, so that is what I did.

 

(So, I'll be dropping the C7 drivers into the KV4 cabinet if anyone is interested).  The KV4 cabinet I have has a couple dings.

 

But, if anyone has had luck with the grill cloth and a close match - please let me know!

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1 hour ago, Shiva said:

A nice inspirational idea, to drop the KV4 drivers into the oak C-7.   That's thinking outside the box.  

Actually, I was only thinking about the box...

 

But the KV4 box is nice and neutral black and all, but the C7 is a bit nicer.  Traded my black c7 with Teaman (thanks!) and a little restor-a-finish and damn it's looking pretty nice.

 

But the interior volume of both is awfully close.

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2 hours ago, DEP14 said:

But the KV4 box is nice and neutral black and all, but the C7 is a bit nicer.  Traded my black c7 with Teaman (thanks!) and a little restor-a-finish and damn it's looking pretty nice.

 

But the interior volume of both is awfully close.

I have heard people say the KV4 and the C7 sound nearly identical.  I think the KV4 has a larger CD K-63-N and is the matching center channel for the mighty CF-4's.

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Hi,

 Please excuse me for changing the topic, I would appreciate input.  I would like to buy another amp (integrated) for my CF-3's (version 3 I believe), I have a couple of questions;

 

I see according to Klipsch brochure they are rated for 100 db SPL sensitivity, I think I remember reading on a forum somewhere that this may too high and it may actually be in the mid 90's?

 

I know they are nominally rated at 8 ohms impedance, but a told the impedance  curve is not very flat and that in general tube amps prefer a more flat curve?

 

I am considering a Rogue Sphinx integrated which is a hybrid or a fully tube integrated like maybe a Decware low power. Some have told me I may be fine with under 10 watts per channel.

I  listen to classical and especially like large orchestral, my concern with the low power tube would be having enough power for this.

At one point I tried the CF-3's with a older Yamaha AX-570(100wpc) and a Geroge Wright tube pre-amp, it sounded good but pre amp had too much gain for the main amp, plus the yamaha is older. This is why I am considering the Rogue. 

 

Another question is do solid state amps in general have better damping factors than tube? In my mind this relates to woofer control which the CF-3"s have 2 - 10" woofers.

 

I am interested in the Decware or similar but want to make sure I have enough power

 

Thanks Bob

 

 

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5 hours ago, rbtwsp said:

Hi,

 Please excuse me for changing the topic, I would appreciate input.  I would like to buy another amp (integrated) for my CF-3's (version 3 I believe), I have a couple of questions;

 

I see according to Klipsch brochure they are rated for 100 db SPL sensitivity, I think I remember reading on a forum somewhere that this may too high and it may actually be in the mid 90's?

 

I know they are nominally rated at 8 ohms impedance, but a told the impedance  curve is not very flat and that in general tube amps prefer a more flat curve?

 

I am considering a Rogue Sphinx integrated which is a hybrid or a fully tube integrated like maybe a Decware low power. Some have told me I may be fine with under 10 watts per channel.

I  listen to classical and especially like large orchestral, my concern with the low power tube would be having enough power for this.

At one point I tried the CF-3's with a older Yamaha AX-570(100wpc) and a Geroge Wright tube pre-amp, it sounded good but pre amp had too much gain for the main amp, plus the yamaha is older. This is why I am considering the Rogue. 

 

Another question is do solid state amps in general have better damping factors than tube? In my mind this relates to woofer control which the CF-3"s have 2 - 10" woofers.

 

I am interested in the Decware or similar but want to make sure I have enough power

 

Thanks Bob

 

 

The only insight I can give is my personal experience over the last 20 years with my CF-4’s. I’ve paired them with several receivers, 2 different Denon’s, 2 different Integra’s, a Pioneer, and I’m forgetting one. Right now it’s being pushed by a Bryston 8B-ST bridged for 400 Watts at 8 ohms. They’ve always sounded good with the other receivers but now that I’m running  the Integra DTR-60.6 as a pre-pro with the Bryston I’ve never heard them sound so good. Depth and soundstage are incredible. Theres just more depth now and with a good recording the singer is front and center and sounds like they’re in the room with me, but slightly elevated like they’re on a stage higher than my seat. This is exactly what I’ve aleays wanted them to sound like. I knew they could sound this good but definitely the right gear makes them sing over other stuff. I’d love to hear them on tube gear to find out how they sound. The closest I am to that is the Budgie tube preamp I’m using for my turntable which I love. So my opinion after having mine for so long and trial and error with different gear is that it’s truly trial and error. Try it and see how they sound. If they don’t match well, sell and try another. Each type of gear will bring about different pros and cons to the sound. I’d bet though that tube gear will sound great with any epic. 

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21 minutes ago, boricua2480 said:

The only insight I can give is my personal experience over the last 20 years with my CF-4’s. I’ve paired them with several receivers, 2 different Denon’s, 2 different Integra’s, a Pioneer, and I’m forgetting one. Right now it’s being pushed by a Bryston 8B-ST bridged for 400 Watts at 8 ohms. They’ve always sounded good with the other receivers but now that I’m running  the Integra DTR-60.6 as a pre-pro with the Bryston I’ve never heard them sound so good. Depth and soundstage are incredible. Theres just more depth now and with a good recording the singer is front and center and sounds like they’re in the room with me, but slightly elevated like they’re on a stage higher than my seat. This is exactly what I’ve aleays wanted them to sound like. I knew they could sound this good but definitely the right gear makes them sing over other stuff. I’d love to hear them on tube gear to find out how they sound. The closest I am to that is the Budgie tube preamp I’m using for my turntable which I love. So my opinion after having mine for so long and trial and error with different gear is that it’s truly trial and error. Try it and see how they sound. If they don’t match well, sell and try another. Each type of gear will bring about different pros and cons to the sound. I’d bet though that tube gear will sound great with any epic.  

 

What you said reminds me of what someone once said that the CF"s like lots of power. I hear what you are saying about try different gear but that can cost alot of money unless you find inexpensive gear used.

I used mine with a Yamaha AX-570 and a George Wright main amp that was a 6550 push pull amp, I noticed the bass was tighter on the yamaha but the mids better with tube 

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57 minutes ago, rbtwsp said:

 

 

What you said reminds me of what someone once said that the CF"s like lots of power. I hear what you are saying about try different gear but that can cost alot of money unless you find inexpensive gear used.

I used mine with a Yamaha AX-570 and a George Wright main amp that was a 6550 push pull amp, I noticed the bass was tighter on the yamaha but the mids better with tube 

Yeah I mean I ended up with different gear every several years to get the newest surround sound format. I wouldn’t buy just to buy and test unless you’ve got money to spend. Ultimately I’d love to try some VRD’s or similar tube setup on my MWM’s and 402 or 402/510 setup. That would be my ultimate setup as long as the sound suited my taste. I imagine I’ll end up with the speakers I want and amp roll until I find what works best. I’ll have the MWM/402’s setup for 2 channel music and the KP-456’s and KPT-200’s and KI-102’s for surround sound. And then the CF-4’s for 2 ch music also. My goal has always been to have my setup to transport me to the front row in any concert I’d ever want to be at. The 1st time I heard a pair of Klipsch speakers was at my buddies brothers house when I was 8 and he was playing my favorite band Pink Floyd - Another Brick In The Wall on K-horns and the rest was history. Obsession set in from that point on. 

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I've always been under the impression that solid state amps have higher damping factor than tube amps. But even with that said, I moved from a vintage Marantz 2270 (Damping factor: 45) to a Parasound A52+ (Damping factor >1100 @ 20Hz) and it's kinda amazing to hear the differences. Woofers hardly move at all even at full volume. If I make the Marantz the pre-amp (different than what I have typically) and throw the bass knob all the way up then they certainly do have visual movement. But otherwise they are very still even with ~200 watts flowing through them.

 

Now, I do have v1 and v3 pairs so I'm not sure how the woofers will behave between the two as I only have the v1 hooked up. And the v3 woofers are MUCH softer than the first generation for certain. I suppose I can do a test or video if that means anything for you

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The bass on the Epics can use some control at times, as the bass it has, is fairly prodigious and sometimes needs it. . I have tried several tube integrated amps on mine and liked them, though the bass could get a tad boomy at times during certain songs and there is nothing I could do about it, as there were no tone knobs to turn on them.   I have found digital amps have a more control of the bass, even small 6 watt T-amps put out tight controlled bass on my CF3's.

 I also think the Epics can be demanding on amps, as their impedance has been shown to dip below 3 ohms.  Having plenty of power on tap seems like a good thing when that happens..  According to their specs, they can also handle 250 watts continuous with 1000 watt peaks.  I  currently have 50 watt t-amp for occasional play and also have a Crown K2 driving them as well, which can more than meet the speakers spec limits and is stable down to 2 ohms, so I think I'm covered.   

   The idea of Rogue gear is solid and worth exploring.   The Sphinx integrated has a tube pre with 100 watts of Class D power, or the Magnum integrated could be fun too.  Its all worth trying for the fun of it and to hear for oneself how you like them.  Primaluna gear also interests me.   

  

   

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I'm driving my recently acquired CF4 V1's with a Pass Labs 250.8 and XP12 pre-amp.  

 

I've also swapped in my Harman Kardon Signature 1.5 (200 wpc, big current amp).  The speakers may be one of the most revealing of upstream electronics that I've ever owned (including palladiums, I had P37's for a while).  

 

I have a neighbor who didn't believe amps could sound different.  When we went from the Pass to the HK, he immediately said, holy shit... what a difference.

 

The HK sounded nice, controlled even a shade darker.  But the Pass has a much larger soundstage.  It was obvious.  (and I believe the HK is a damn fine amp for the money also).

 

That said, I want to ever so slightly tame down the top end when listening loud.  Considering trying a tube pre-amp, or something with tone controls.  Really torn.  I don't want to lose the soundstage the Pass gives, but man if I could just tone it down a shade.

 

Any thoughts on tone controls in a pre-amp, vs a tube pre-amp?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, DEP14 said:

That said, I want to ever so slightly tame down the top end when listening loud.

You can try adding dynamat or silicone to the back of the horn. I did 3/4 tube of silicone on the recommendation of @wvu80 and found it very useful for me

 

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Nice gear to have on hand with the Pass Labs. I would love to hear Epics and Pass Labs together.   Well, tone controls will give an immediate response on the highs, while a tube pre may smooth the highs out, it also may not. One would have to try it and find out. I have read good things on treating the horn, as mentioned above. Do you think you have a bright room or have you treated it, the brightness could also be partly, the room.

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I also think the Epics can be demanding on amps, as their impedance has been shown to dip below 3 ohms.

 

I do not think tube amps would like impedance dipping to 3 ohms.

 I am leaning towards the Rogue Sphinx because there is dealer near and I think I could bring the rogue home to demo, also it's only about $1300( I am in Minnesota, even in Minneapolis there are only a few high end shops)

But I am intrigued by SET

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3 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Nice gear to have on hand with the Pass Labs. I would love to hear Epics and Pass Labs together.   Well, tone controls will give an immediate response on the highs, while a tube pre may smooth the highs out, it also may not. One would have to try it and find out. I have read good things on treating the horn, as mentioned above. Do you think you have a bright room or have you treated it, the brightness could also be partly, the room.

I'm fortunate.  The room is treated.  GIK bass traps in the corners, panels at first and second reflections, carpeted, small dispersion behind speakers and across.

 

They sound very good, just want to tweak... 

 

Need to find some places I can demo some gear.   Might try a vincent pre-amp with tone controls with the pass.

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21 minutes ago, Jirachi said:

Same here. Which place are you looking at? The only speaker salons I know of are Hi-Fi Sound and Stereoland 

I now live in Moose Lake, I lived in Minneapolis until 2002. In addition to HI-Fi Sound and Stereoland, are Audio Perfection, The Needle Doctor(Jerry Raskins), Halsten Entertainment.

There is also Audio by Van Alstine, who manufactures his own and sells direct (he will audition equip).

 

I have bought equip from Hi-Fi sound and Audio Perfection. I believe Halsten is geared more to home theater. Van Alstine has interesting gear, here is a link https://avahifi.com/

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17 hours ago, DEP14 said:

That said, I want to ever so slightly tame down the top end when listening loud.  Considering trying a tube pre-amp, or something with tone controls.  Really torn.  I don't want to lose the soundstage the Pass gives, but man if I could just tone it down a shade.

I had some harshness I heard in my CF-4 HF that I didn't like.  It could have been my speakers, it could have been my electronics, who knows?  All I know is I heard it and once I heard it, I couldn't "un-hear" it and I wanted to get rid of it.  Let me tell you a couple of things I did which I think helped.

 

If you do the "rap test" on the horn you can hear a certain pitch.  You can rap with your knuckles like you are knocking on a door but I prefer a drum stick because I think the sound is more clear.  If you put your hand on the horn the pitch lowers slightly.  I put an 11 oz tube of Pure Silicon caulk on the outside (the part which is inside the box and not visible).  The tubes are $5 each at Lowes and you apply it with a caulking gun.  I put mine on asymmetrically but it probably doesn't matter that much.  Repeat the rap test and you'll find the pitch is now slightly lower.

 

I also put a handful of Poly-fil, maybe a pound in the lower part of the speaker around the ports.  Don't block the tubes, they need the air flow.  I'm sure this lowers the efficiency slightly, but who cares?  Ultimate high efficiency is Klipsch's goal but better accuracy is mine.  You can get a one-pound bag of Poly-fil from Walmart for a couple of bucks.

 

The result is that the harshness is gone and the speaker overall is more accurate.

 

The Klipsch horn is furthest away.  Closer is the SEOS 12 waveguide w/ Denovo DNA-360.  Use only pure silicon caulk because it does not lose its elasticity over time.  Other people have used Dynamat (expensive) or rope caulk, they all do about the same thing.

 

post-58280-0-09360000-1402492289_thumb.jpg

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I may try dynamat, though I'm skeptical.  But, I will put painters tape over the horn first so if I want to pull the dynamat... I can just peal the painters tape.  Because once Dynamat is on, it's on there.  But, may give it a whirl.

 

Side note - DeanG Crossover rebuild definitely broke in a bit.  Skeptical of break-in, but after the first few days, no question they were a bit smoother and settled in.  As for the difference, well the speakers sound great and imaging is spectacular.

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On 8/25/2018 at 6:04 PM, Jirachi said:

I've always been under the impression that solid state amps have higher damping factor than tube amps. But even with that said, I moved from a vintage Marantz 2270 (Damping factor: 45) to a Parasound A52+ (Damping factor >1100 @ 20Hz) and it's kinda amazing to hear the differences. Woofers hardly move at all even at full volume. If I make the Marantz the pre-amp (different than what I have typically) and throw the bass knob all the way up then they certainly do have visual movement. But otherwise they are very still even with ~200 watts flowing through them.

 

Now, I do have v1 and v3 pairs so I'm not sure how the woofers will behave between the two as I only have the v1 hooked up. And the v3 woofers are MUCH softer than the first generation for certain. I suppose I can do a test or video if that means anything for you

 

Funny you mention damping. I just started to research this when comparing specs on my old Kenwood amp to the new Rotel. I've been wondering why my drivers barely move now compared to how active they were with the Kenwood. Damping also explains why I popped a dustcap and separated the cone from the coil at not even close to the rated power capacity of the speaker with the Kenwood. Luckily the Epics were repaired by Klipsch under warranty and for the duration of my use of that amp, especially after the warranty ran out, I kept everything at lower volumes to prevent a reoccurance.  After getting XO's rebuilt by Crites and buying a replacement driver,  just in case,  I bit the bullet and replaced the amp with the Rotel. Best blind decision I've ever made. Lol. I wonder how many speakers Klipsch has repaired under warranty where the failure was no fault of Klipsch components used but rather inferior equipment used to drive them? 

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