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kapsnb01

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So there goes that option. I was just interested in using "premium" parts to get every bit of quality as I could. Still haven't heard the CWIV, but coming from Klipschorns to the CF-3 version. 1, I've learned i prefer 2 way for my personal taste.
So my only options are 1. staying put and upgrade gear 2. Go active crossover w/k510 3. Ki-396 - ugly pro speaker :( 4. Wait for used La Scala+k510 Jubescala. 5. JUBE LF+K510 cant do massive k402

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I just replaced the capacitors in the LF section of my CF-4 Series 1's. Went from tiny electrolytics to Solen film caps about the size of red bull can. I also bypassed them with 1uF Auricaps to get the exact spec capacitance. Lastly, I replaced the 1 ohm attenuator resistor that's in series with the compression driver. I had my roommate listen blind to each speaker playing mono, back and forth. He immediately picked out the one with new caps as having better clarity and "whoomp". Bob Crites is right, I had to shoe-horn that stuff in there, but I got it done. It'd be hard to go further with the stock boards.

 

I have a vague idea what the value for the inductors are, but I'm not 100% sure to be buying hundreds of dollars in new parts to rebuild these and then screw it up. My advice is to keep the stock inductors, replace the electrolytics, and a couple resistors with good Mundorf or similar MOX resistors. You could probably put the longer ports on there and be fine, too. Beyond that, you'd have to spend so much money on new crossovers that it makes more sense to go full active biamp with a Mini DSP, or a First Watt B5 active crossover. Then you can go full speaker tweaker.

Edited by Maxwell_E
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18 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

JEM Performance     5

 

  

 

So those yellow capacitors used on all the newer Klipsch models are going to be Klipsch approved even for the Epic CF-3, and CF-4 series and matching KV-4 center? These seem so different to the heritage products. Do the caps on the CF-3/4 even need to be replaced? Do they go out of spec like the heritage caps?

EDIT: for those wondering JEM only works on the heritage line

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1 hour ago, Maximus89 said:

So those yellow capacitors used on all the newer Klipsch models are going to be Klipsch approved even for the Epic CF-3, and CF-4 series and matching KV-4 center? These seem so different to the heritage products. Do the caps on the CF-3/4 even need to be replaced? Do they go out of spec like the heritage caps?

 

Capacitors do have a finite lifespan.

 

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The black/yellow film caps in the HF section are film, and almost definitely made by Bennic. Film capacitors last longer than electrolytic, and some PIO like what came on the heritage speakers. I'd be surprised if they were out of spec after 25 years, but weirder things have happened.

 

$50 per speaker can upgrade you to ClarityCap CSA, and about $150 per speaker to get Auricaps. That's when I priced it for the CF-4, which should have roughly the same HF section. This is when I decided to leave the stock black/yellow film caps in the HF section. For me, it would be more rewarding to get a MiniDSP, remove the crossovers, and biamp the speakers, possibly with a little SET amp on the horns and a beefy solid state for the woofers. Then I can mess with all kinds of crossover configurations, frequencies, time delay, and room-mode testing.

Edited by Maxwell_E
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  • Klipsch Employees

One more time.....you HAVE to look at the network as a system. It provides a voltage transfer curve to the drivers in order to maintain the original frequency response curve. Changing a component of the system requires that the voltage transfer curve be checked. If it has changed then the original intent of the frequency response curve has changed and would require that the value of other components , including the cap be changed in order to get the original voltage transfer curve. Changing caps arbitrarily without checking the voltage curve is like equalization. Of course some caps are better for audio signals but once the choice is made For the cap and other components and the network is designed around those components that give the desired voltage transfer curve, changing one of those at random will NOT guarantee that you have the correct voltage curve. 

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1 hour ago, Chief bonehead said:

One more time.....you HAVE to look at the network as a system. It provides a voltage transfer curve to the drivers in order to maintain the original frequency response curve. Changing a component of the system requires that the voltage transfer curve be checked. If it has changed then the original intent of the frequency response curve has changed and would require that the value of other components , including the cap be changed in order to get the original voltage transfer curve. Changing caps arbitrarily without checking the voltage curve is like equalization. Of course some caps are better for audio signals but once the choice is made For the cap and other components and the network is designed around those components that give the desired voltage transfer curve, changing one of those at random will NOT guarantee that you have the correct voltage curve. 

 

I am genuinely curious about this. What is the “voltage transfer curve “ in a polyester cap that differs from other types of caps? What I mean is is it faster/slower, more linear or logarithmic or something else? If it were to be plotted what might one expect to see different over other types of capacitors?

 

I want to clarify, I am asking here in general and not looking for a lengthy drawn out technical post explanation of this.

 

 

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As someone who is new to Klipsch ownership (since March 2020, CF3's V1, they sound amazing) what would be the current recommendation for a crossover refresh (assuming it is needed)? I'm not looking for an "upgrade" or anything like that, rather if these have never been serviced I'd like to make sure they meet OEM specs.

 

 

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I updated all the caps in my Ver1. CF-4’s with the ClarityCap PX and the ClarityCap ESA series. The resistors were updated with Mills. The results were like taking a blanket off of the speakers. 

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On 1/6/2021 at 8:19 PM, Chief bonehead said:

One more time.....you HAVE to look at the network as a system. It provides a voltage transfer curve to the drivers in order to maintain the original frequency response curve. Changing a component of the system requires that the voltage transfer curve be checked. If it has changed then the original intent of the frequency response curve has changed and would require that the value of other components , including the cap be changed in order to get the original voltage transfer curve. Changing caps arbitrarily without checking the voltage curve is like equalization. Of course some caps are better for audio signals but once the choice is made For the cap and other components and the network is designed around those components that give the desired voltage transfer curve, changing one of those at random will NOT guarantee that you have the correct voltage curve. 

 

Can you elaborate on or clarify this regarding changing capacitors to the common polypropylene type caps many people use when changing factory klipsch caps?  Does keeping the same uf value but increasing the voltage alter the voltage transfer curve?  Most of the poly caps out there are much higher voltage ratings, 250v for the popular sonicap brand caps.  Just curious if changing the cap voltage has any adverse effect on the voltage transfer curve you explain above.  I agree some types of caps can "go bad" or fall out of spec after X amount of time & there are better quality caps than what klipsch used in the post heritage models, but is all the changing to different voltage caps causing any potential issues? 

 

I own a pair of chorus 2 speakers & when i got them they sounded terrible, like a towel was covering the fronts.  I changed to some budget but good rated poly caps with same value but 100v rating & it instantly improved the sound back to what they should sound like.  However, I've owned 2 other pairs of chorus 2 with original caps that sounded great, have also owned numerous other models like forte, forte2, cf-4, & tons of KG models & they all sounded good with original caps, so there must be other variables that determine if/when a capacitor needs to be replaced.     

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Can you elaborate on or clarify this regarding changing capacitors to the common polypropylene type caps many people use when changing factory klipsch caps?  Does keeping the same uf value but increasing the voltage alter the voltage transfer curve?  Most of the poly caps out there are much higher voltage ratings, 250v for the popular sonicap brand caps.  Just curious if changing the cap voltage has any adverse effect on the voltage transfer curve you explain above.  I agree some types of caps can "go bad" or fall out of spec after X amount of time & there are better quality caps than what klipsch used in the post heritage models, but is all the changing to different voltage caps causing any potential issues? 
 
I own a pair of chorus 2 speakers & when i got them they sounded terrible, like a towel was covering the fronts.  I changed to some budget but good rated poly caps with same value but 100v rating & it instantly improved the sound back to what they should sound like.  However, I've owned 2 other pairs of chorus 2 with original caps that sounded great, have also owned numerous other models like forte, forte2, cf-4, & tons of KG models & they all sounded good with original caps, so there must be other variables that determine if/when a capacitor needs to be replaced.     
I'm also curious why replacing heritage vintage caps with the new poly caps just bc they are klilsch approved for their current speakers is right to replace but the rest of the network is using different parts than the current models aslo. Aren't PIO caps closer to the original than the new yellow poly caps? One simply not Klipsch approved equals not original sound, the other is Klipsch approved which equals original sound?

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Practical capacitors and inductors as used in electric circuits are not ideal components with only capacitance or inductance. However, they can be treated, to a very good degree of approximation, as being ideal capacitors and inductors in series with a resistance; this resistance is defined as the equivalent series resistance (ESR). If not otherwise specified, the ESR is always an AC resistance, which means it is measured at specified frequencies, 100 kHz for switched-mode power supply components, 120 Hz for linear power-supply components, and at its self-resonant frequency for general-application components. Additionally, audio components may report a "Q factor", incorporating ESR among other things, at 1000 Hz.

 

Ask again once you understand all of the above including the links provided.

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My ears understand Deans work for my Klipschorns and i'd go back to him before getting those Klipsch approved caps. Same for La Scalas/Belles.  For CW or Hersey or Forte or Chorus or KLF, etc, i'd for sure go that approved route considering the low cost. 

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19 minutes ago, Maximus89 said:

My ears understand Deans work for my Klipschorns and i'd go back to him before getting those Klipsch approved caps. Same for La Scalas/Belles.  For CW or Hersey or Forte or Chorus or KLF, etc, i'd for sure go that approved route considering the low cost. 

Deang is done. Call JEM and report back. Then if they won't do the work, call the place I suggested earlier because they are legit, but not factory accurate "voltage tranfer curve", but can definitely build a high quality board. If you read the links I post you will understand why so few are involved in this kind of work. Applied math yes, applied income...well a few actually figured that part out pretty well.

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Deang is done. Call JEM and report back. Then if they won't do the work, call the place I suggested earlier because they are legit, but not factory accurate "voltage tranfer curve", but can definitely build a high quality board. If you read the links I post you will understand why so few are involved in this kind of work. Applied math yes, applied income...well a few actually figured that part out pretty well.
Deans done? Well through the years it seems he always eventually returns. JEM only does heritage according to email response, so a no go on the Epic line of speakers. I wonder if they consider the Forte/Chorus/KLF/KG speakers heritage?

I'll probably hold off on the crossover work for these cf3s and spend a lot of time researching going active. If anything id like a Jubescala set up with some split la scalas/k510. Easiest route to meet my 2 way desire. The cf3 would need a new motorboard cut out or cut into the original for the 2 " wider K510 plus start active crossover from scratch which i have no idea where to begin.

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1 hour ago, Maximus89 said:

Deans done? Well through the years it seems he always eventually returns. JEM only does heritage according to email response, so a no go on the Epic line of speakers. I wonder if they consider the Forte/Chorus/KLF/KG speakers heritage?

I'll probably hold off on the crossover work for these cf3s and spend a lot of time researching going active. If anything id like a Jubescala set up with some split la scalas/k510. Easiest route to meet my 2 way desire. The cf3 would need a new motorboard cut out or cut into the original for the 2 " wider K510 plus start active crossover from scratch which i have no idea where to begin.

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have you contacted Bob Crites? If this has been suggested then please carry on.

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have you contacted Bob Crites? If this has been suggested then please carry on.
Yes he can recap the Epic speakers but that's all he'll do on them. Not sure what I'd get with SoniCaps or if there's even a need to recap. These caps on the CF don't go out of spec like the vintage heritage caps im told?

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