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Modding Synergy's for upgrade


rebuy

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As I said it is confusing

Agreed. Terrible marketing decision by Klipsch (and no, there's not a nicer way to say it...)

I think I made the right choice and now I don't need to

spend money I cannot afford to lose.

Fair point, and have been there. So I totally get that.

When I buy a house--maybe I'll go Heritage but until then......

You won't be sorry. Thanks to a forum member I was able to update my '81 Heresies last night, and they sound pretty damn good. I'd go all heritage if I could afford it and had the space.

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I think you're right. I have 4 1/8in to play with in the f2, plenty more room in the c2 center. DAMN! oh that has me bummed because I perked up when I saw that spec sheet. The weight wasn't worrying me these horns have ribbing and would be prob fine with 3lbs vs 2lbs. 3/16  clearance issue SO CLOSE!

 

These cabinets look like 1/2in mdf. I'm up in the air if I am willing to cut a stripe down the center to notch and fit the better tweeter.

 

D230TI is definitely not as flat or nice looking as the D280TI. I looked at every other drivers chart and the only one close was the 5+in dayton and that is just not happening.

 

 

 

I started an album with my pictures I took earlier.

 

I have a good amount of foam in these although it's just loose packed on 2 sides.

 

Your cabinets have much more damping material than mine came with.

Your crossover is a lot nicer than the ones that came in mine.

I think you have mylar caps--I had NP Radial Cheapies---Mine were Not good for audio.

Yours should be fine unless you want to upgrade.

 

Now my horns are more efficient than what my speakers are rated for.

I Did think about using a 8 Ohm L pad in case the tweeter turned out to be too loud.

After installation---I don't need one.

You know--Klipsch makes the Speakers to Sound Big anyways

and adding the tweeter to my system was just right.

I'd probally pick either the Eminence or the Small PRV and do the install

Without a crossover mod and see what it sounds like.

Just don't put any marks on the drivers so you can return them

if you are unhappy--Parts Express is pretty reasonable to deal with.

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If Rebuy bought the speakers 70% off, he got a good deal.  Putting a little money to upgrade a few things worked out well for him.  The I con line is less than the RF/RP but, they are not bad speakers.  I have had quiet a few speakers over the last several years of the so called nicer type and have sold them.  I have kept my I con VF 35's and have no intention of moving them out of the family room.

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Oh I got my synergy line brand new from someone who worked at best buy and their employee discount. I easily paid about the same for mine at the time.

 

But really it's what is my time worth and what's my return on investment. I don't think spending gobs on other speakers and trying to hock all of these is going to net me the best return compared to modding.

 

I think the d230 is out compared to the asd1001 because of that resonant hysteresis between 1-2k, which is right in the crossover spot. I think it would make for some odd blending and that one really needs to be crossed at 2k. I have no idea how much woofer breakup these drivers have and how high they go so I don't know if bumping up the cross is a good or bad idea without data.

 

I took a stab at e-mailing tech support to see if they were willing to release any data. I figure 50/50 shot since the speakers are old but the drivers might still be current tech.

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I don't think spending gobs on other speakers and trying to hock all of these is going to net me the best return compared to modding.

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Klipsch speakers the further up the chain you go retain their value pretty darn well. RF-7 II's are still widespread at $2,500 - as an example. RF-5's are still between $500 and $900. Mods can add value, or they can detract. It depends on what the modification is, and if it's the kind of mod that the buyer is interested in. There are many cases where someone would prefer the stock over the mod.

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I don't think spending gobs on other speakers and trying to hock all of these is going to net me the best return compared to modding.

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Klipsch speakers the further up the chain you go retain their value pretty darn well. RF-7 II's are still widespread at $2,500 - as an example. RF-5's are still between $500 and $900. Mods can add value, or they can detract. It depends on what the modification is, and if it's the kind of mod that the buyer is interested in. There are many cases where someone would prefer the stock over the mod.

 

Indeed true, but I was not talking about my mods adding resale value. I doubt I will get my investment back and don't care to.

 

I'm saying it's a lot cheaper for me to sink $100 into upgrading these speakers to sound like something I paid 3x the money for, than to sell them for a loss and spend thousands doing it.

Someday when they don't cut it for me I might get into something a little more custom and intense, like building statement II's or maybe replicate a 3 way volti with bms drivers and some crites guts, etc.

I'll get the itch again, or maybe not. The synergies have held me over 10+ years as they were.

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so,
I have hemmed and hawed over this because I was really interested in the bigger prv 280 driver, but these speakers are just not the medium for it. I couldn't lower the horn because it's part of the plastic faceplate touching the first driver below it. I couldn't get rid of the faceplate with a new horn because of the plastic top piece glued to the cabinet, and I couldn't get rid of that plastic top piece because the speaker grill would extend above and look funny. I would have had to notch the inside of the MDF up top a little and I didn't want to deal with it.

I ordered the asd1001's to do my fronts and matching center channel. Picked up some dayton resistors in case I decided I wanted to use them. Now to see how well it all blends when it arrives.
I have a lot more foam in mine than you started with so I probably won't mess with that at all to start.

I also ordered a umik-1 from cross spectrum labs to see what changes.
 

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Let me enlighten yuns on the Synergy/Icon/Reference.

 

SF1, SF2, SF3 etc.. Gen 1/2 Synergy

F2, F3, etc.  Gen 3 Synergy, newer industrial design, new horns. new tweeter, new woofers.

Icon V line VF35. VF36 etc... (Absolutely nothing to do with Synergy line, no common parts)

Icon X line  (nothing in common with Synergy)

Icon W line (nothing to do with Synergy)

F20, F30 etc. code name=Synergy III mkII, paint color change, new LTS aluminum tweeter on 1" models, new voicing, with new network designs

Icon line (evolution of the Synergy line) Completely new horn designs, tweaked woofers, (whole line only uses 1" LTS aluminum tweeter) new voicing, new network designs 

Reference R-28F, R-24F etc.. code name=reference Base   R-24F new addition to line up

 

Maybe that will be helpful to some.

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I posted this in a different topic:

The newer "Reference" series replaced the Synergy series, and the "Reference Premiere" series replaces the outgoing "Reference II" line. The RF-7ii has not been replaced yet.

Klipsch made it extremely confusing to compare used models to current ones, but basically just follow the driver materials to see what tier a series sits in.

Example, following the 8" woofer models

Titanium tweeters and Cerametallic woofers:

Reference(1st gen, RF-3)

Reference(2nd gen, RF-3ii)

Reference(3rd gen, RF-35)

Reference(4th gen, RF-82)

Reference II(5th gen, RF-82ii)

Reference Premiere(6th gen, RP-280f)

Aluminum tweeters and IMG woofers:

Synergy(1st gen, KSF 10.5)

Synergy(2nd gen, SF-3)

Synergy(3rd gen, F-3)

Synergy(4th gen, F-30)

Icon(5th gen, KF-28)

Reference(6th gen, R-28f)

Then I would consider the larger Titanium tweeter models to be on a high performance tier, as follows:

RF-7(1st&2nd gen)

RB-75(3rd gen)

RF-83(4th gen)

RF-7ii(5th gen)

????(6th gen)

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I just completed my upgrade today.

 

The C2 does NOT have the clearance internally for the eminence driver and bracket because it hits the crossover. I had to remove the crossover from it's brackets and offset it to 1 side, flip it upside down, and hot glue it to the back of the plastic housing.

Afterwards I just barely fit and had to torque the bolts because the back hit some plastic bracing.

 

All 3 fronts are done though and WOW what a difference! it's like a blanket was lifted.

 

I did some before and after measurements in REW and was surprised to see that the general character was not really changed. The profile was very similar. over 10k was around 3-4db hotter or so but it did very well.

 

I'll post the nearfields and pictures when I get a chance. hopefully it helps paint a picture to anyone else considering the same.

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  • 1 year later...

20 years ago I was nearing graduation and shopping for my first real system. I visited the Good Guys to checkout a highly regarded (for the $$) set of Energy Towers. I wasn't blown away… not until I heard the Klipsch KSF-10.5s. I knew I had to have them.

A year later I pre-ordered the Kenwood VR-2090 AVR. I had to sacrafice the KSF-10.5s for 8.5s to afford the KSW-15. I ended up with 8.5s, S5s, C5, and the 15" sub. The Kenwood couldn't handle all 5 speakers (these really should be rated 6Ω nominal). It only had pre-out for the center and surrounds so I added a H/K 5800. At that time it was the best sound I had experienced at home or in the theater (I was living in Huntsville, AL).

I moved back to California in 2005 into an apartment (I had to start saving money for a house). I sold everything and got close to what I paid for the Klipsch. In the apartment I wanted something sleek. I liked the DefTech Mythos design (my uncle had a 7.1 Mythos setup) but my curiosity led me to the Mirage Omnisat v2s. I have been rocking Mirage ever since and have a 9.1.6 layout with the flagship Mirage OMDs up front.

For movie dynamics, there is nothing else like horns & compression drivers. After running into the KSF-10.5s I bought them for nostalgia. I only use them to test components including amplifiers (SS & tube) due to their transparency.

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I now have the Lyngdorf MP-50 SSP, Class D amplification (D-Sonic), acoustic treatments & bass traps. I got really curious how well Room Perfect could deal with horns. I have a pair of JBL Studio 580s and a friend trying to sell 4 NIB 590s. It was tempting but too expensive. I decided to start with the KSF-10.5s and see what kind of system (5.1 - 9.1) I could build with a budget limit of $1k.

 

3e08c1aaffb4b75f6ecb6d878382537c.jpgb32978ad5206b7270adf79e2a927892a.jpg

Now I have the KSF-10.5, KSF-8.5s, KSF-C5, SF-2s, and just acquired a pair of SF-3s. The SF-3s were essentially given to me because the woofers didn't play on one tower. I went to test them this morning and immediately spotted the problem. 3b214c741284c35d19623b5ff6de5713.jpg The shorting bars are missing! Otherwise, it plays just fine.

 

Now, I want to replace the aluminum compression drivers as described in this thread.

 

 

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The Eminence ASD1001 seems to be the popular choice to replace the stock compression drivers. I also see where many use the ADF25 adapter.

Are folks actually using the screw-on version of the Eminence driver? Are there advantages to increasing the throat length with this approach?
290-525_HR_0.jpgs-l1000.jpg

It seems like the Eminence ASD1001b could be directly mated to the horn. No?
290-522_ALT_0.jpg

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  • 8 months later...

Sorry to resurrect but I wanted to thank those who contributed to this thread and share some info. I just upgraded the domes on my Synergy B-3’s with PRV D230ti’s and couldn’t be happier.

The bolt to screw on adapters mentioned in this thread are no longer available but Bob Crites over at https://critesspeakers.com/ has an alternative that works, just email him. You still need to drill new holes in the adapter.

The crossover on the Synergy B-3 is 2050Hz so the horn driver carries a lot of range. The Eminence driver mentioned in this thread starts at 2500Hz so don't use that driver. The PRV D230 driver starts at 1600Hz and has a suggested crossover of 2000Hz so it works perfect. The PRV is more sensitive than stock but I do not feel that resistors are needed to lower it (sounds great to me on a 2.1 system). The stock driver weighs nothing. The new driver is 2 pounds but the horn and 8 mounting bolts handle the weight fine.

My measurements for anyone else with Synergy B-3’s –

5 ¼ inch from the front of the horn to the rear port (total space)

2 ¼ inch horn length without driver (minus the total space gives you 3 inches until you hit the rear port)

1 inch stock driver

With the PRV driver and bolt to screw adapter there is a little over an inch of clearance compared to the 2 inches of clearance stock.

Edited by FallenM
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On 10/26/2018 at 11:59 AM, FallenM said:

Sorry to resurrect but I wanted to thank those who contributed to this thread and share some info. I just upgraded the domes on my Synergy B-3’s with PRV D230ti’s and couldn’t be happier.

The bolt to screw on adapters mentioned in this thread are no longer available but Bob Crites over at https://critesspeakers.com/ has an alternative that works, just email him. You still need to drill new holes in the adapter.

The crossover on the Synergy B-3 is 2050Hz so the horn driver carries a lot of range. The Eminence driver mentioned in this thread starts at 2500Hz so don't use that driver. The PRV D230 driver starts at 1600Hz and has a suggested crossover of 2000Hz so it works perfect. The PRV is more sensitive than stock but I do not feel that resistors are needed to lower it (sounds great to me on a 2.1 system). The stock driver weighs nothing. The new driver is 2 pounds but the horn and 8 mounting bolts handle the weight fine.

My measurements for anyone else with Synergy B-3’s –

5 ¼ inch from the front of the horn to the rear port (total space)

2 ¼ inch horn length without driver (minus the total space gives you 3 inches until you hit the rear port)

1 inch stock driver

With the PRV driver and bolt to screw adapter there is a little over an inch of clearance compared to the 2 inches of clearance stock.

 

Thanks for this info, I am using the Eminence driver and have had zero issues and my Synergies sound great.

I had a limited space to work with and everything came out fine.

It's been 3 years and I'm glad to have removed the horrible sounding tweeters that came with this speaker.

I'm gonna look up that driver you used also, you know, we like to tinker and improve.

Thanks for the info.

 

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  • 2 years later...
On 2/2/2018 at 2:45 PM, Marc Alexander said:

I now have the Lyngdorf MP-50 SSP, Class D amplification (D-Sonic), acoustic treatments & bass traps. I got really curious how well Room Perfect could deal with horns. I have a pair of JBL Studio 580s and a friend trying to sell 4 NIB 590s. It was tempting but too expensive. I decided to start with the KSF-10.5s and see what kind of system (5.1 - 9.1) I could build with a budget limit of $1k.

 

3e08c1aaffb4b75f6ecb6d878382537c.jpgb32978ad5206b7270adf79e2a927892a.jpg

Now I have the KSF-10.5, KSF-8.5s, KSF-C5, SF-2s, and just acquired a pair of SF-3s. The SF-3s were essentially given to me because the woofers didn't play on one tower. I went to test them this morning and immediately spotted the problem. 3b214c741284c35d19623b5ff6de5713.jpg The shorting bars are missing! Otherwise, it plays just fine.

 

Now, I want to replace the aluminum compression drivers as described in this thread.

 

 

I just want to thank you for reminding me about the shorting bars... I was able to give my F2's away, thinking there was a blown tweeter on one tower-- now it's brought back to life... until the mod. 

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  • 1 year later...

I have owned the Synergy F1 speakers and the Reference 62. When I got the 62's I gave the F1's to my mother.

My 62's got stolen with the rest of my gear at the time. I now have the F1 speakers back after my mother passed away. When I first bought the F1 speakers I had a Firestone Audio Tube Head mini preamp. It had dual OPAMP dip sockets. I bought the best OPAMPs I could think of which were 2 National Semiconductor LM4562NA for $5 each. They ran at 55mhz which was much faster than cheaper ones that were 10-15mhz. They had a signal to noise ratio exceeding 120db. My favorite OPAMPS of all time. The Tube Head had a separate power section with a mini Toroidal transformer. At different times Hi-Fi companies offer more bang for the buck than others. In 2008 I bought the Rotel RB-1050 power amplifier brand new for $427 after tax. It had a huge Toroidal transformer with a rating of 70 watts RMS per channel at 8 ohms. And 140 watts RMS per channel at 4 ohms. The RB-1050 also had a dampening factor of 500 with an almost perfect signal to noise ratio of 116db. I have never seen any other amp come close to it in terms of bang for the buck. They have one that they sell now whose specs are less and it cost $1,400. Then I had a $250 Monster Power current filter which made an awesome difference in the sound as it sounded much cleaner without the harshness. So I have tried tons of brands of cables with varying levels of quality, awg, and electromagnetic interference rejection as well as shielding. When you test the different cables on a system like the one I built you notice how well higher quality cables sound against the cheap pin thin ones with no sheilding. I have tried single wire speakers and the Bi-amp/Bi-wire speakers. I tried 2 sets of Original Monster cable 10 awg. I tried one. I tried 2 sets of 14 awg Monster cable XP with the magnetic flux tube. The magnetic flux tube does what it claims and takes the harshness out of the sound. So the 14awg XP with magnetic flux tube sounded better than the 10awg Original. I did 2 single Z series with Bi-wiring and thought those would sound better than the $260 all in one Bi-wire cables. I was wrong! The all in one Z series Bi-wire cables blew everything else out of the water. They sounded better than Bi-amping. The point of high quality cables is to maintain signal integrity while rejecting noise and interference. It truly makes a difference as every detail is heard and the depth of the sound stage as well as imaging become so real. The power output and dynamics are then distortion free without limits. When it comes to wanting your system to sound it's best you have to maintain the same exact quality in the chain of your equipment. It is like upgrading your crossovers with only half of the caps being top of the line and have the other ones being half of the quality of the TOP. And an inferior type. Why would anybody want that kind of mismatched parts and lack of sonic consistency? I see people blaming their lack in desirable sound on the quality of the speakers themselves. Think about a water pipeline. You want the exact same size pipe from start to finish. The one thing that everyone overlooks is a consistent level of quality in cable awg and material type. Did anyone wonder why a speaker says 8 ohms compatible? That is because the speaker isn't 8 ohms, but running it that way is less than ideal and you won't achieve the speakers true potential in terms of frequency response and true power output and dynamics. Every speaker that said the words 8 ohms compatible I tested with the jumpers on or off at 4 ohms or less. 4 ohm speakers are better because you can dump twice the continuous power into them with equipment made to handle a 4 ohm speaker. The awg and quality as well as type of cable going from the crossovers to the drivers and tweeters should be the same as the cables coming from the amp to the crossovers. When I got my Synergy F1 speakers the highs were harsh and the mid/bass drivers sounded awful. I could only turn the volume to the 9 o'clock position and a hair higher as the mid/bass drivers would bottom out clanking and popping really loud. I had my Z series all in one Bi-wire cables in use and the F1 speakers sounded as bad as the pin thin stock wires on the crossovers that were restricting power flow and distorting the signal. They lacked in clarity, detail, sound stage, imaging, bass, power output, and dynamics.

I took off the stock wire on the crossovers and had to dremel the holes on the crossover boards to fit the 14awg Monster Cable XP with that magnetic flux tube that helps the smoothness of the sound as well as bass. That is exactly what is in the all in one Bi-wire cables. So now I could turn it from the 9 o'clock position to the 2 o'clock position without limitations in all of the above mentioned shortcomings. Another thing that I do after making the F1 speakers sound better than my $1,200 Polk Audio LSi9's is strategically place the polyfil just right which takes a lot of experimenting and reopening of the speakers to make the Mids and bass sound their best. The resistance also went from 4.4 ohms to 3.7 ohms resting impedance. Always buy 4 ohm stable gear and know that Bi-wire speakers with those type of cables blow away single wire post speakers. Now it is time to mod the crossovers with Mundorf capacitors! Btw, Monster Cable is the best bang for the buck cables out there and you get what you pay for. All other cables I have seen claim to be better and are not as they even cost more lacking the level of quality and tech Monster Cables have as they have been in business longer and were able to spend the money on perfecting high quality cables and machines that could mass produce them at a higher level of quality. Thank you for your time!

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  • 2 months later...
On 4/19/2016 at 8:38 AM, tastyratz said:

so,
I have hemmed and hawed over this because I was really interested in the bigger prv 280 driver, but these speakers are just not the medium for it. I couldn't lower the horn because it's part of the plastic faceplate touching the first driver below it. I couldn't get rid of the faceplate with a new horn because of the plastic top piece glued to the cabinet, and I couldn't get rid of that plastic top piece because the speaker grill would extend above and look funny. I would have had to notch the inside of the MDF up top a little and I didn't want to deal with it.

I ordered the asd1001's to do my fronts and matching center channel. Picked up some dayton resistors in case I decided I wanted to use them. Now to see how well it all blends when it arrives.
I have a lot more foam in mine than you started with so I probably won't mess with that at all to start.

I also ordered a umik-1 from cross spectrum labs to see what changes.
 

Hi, thanks all for a rich and interesting thread!

I have Synergy C2, pairing with Synergy F1 Tower and 2 woffers/speakers spare parts idem to the original in F1 tower, so considering 2 mods and would ask a couple of questions.

 

1- Makes sense add the extra woofer to the F1 tower in order to obtain something like an F2?

Can I use the same crossover? and how should I connect the new speakers, parallel (obtaining an impedance of 4 ohms) or serial (obtaining a impedance of 16 ohms). Considering the rest of the speakers will remain original

 

2-Any advise in the selection of using the asd1001 or PRV 230 to replace the tweeter in the C2 central channel and probably on the F1 Towers?

If I change the central should I change the others in order to match?

 

Everything connected to a Marantz NR1607 with the rest of surround speakers from the F1 set.

 

Thanks!

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