Jim Naseum Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 Freak occurrence is called a "black swan." An asteroid hitting a building is such an occurrence. Since the Newtown School shootings, there have been 994 mass shootings in the US. So, mass shootings are not black swans. They are a basic and regular feature of our social structure. The rate of occurrence is on the rise. We are feeding the feature, making it rise, because that's how social systems work. Society has a feedback loop. When it moves in unwanted direction the negative feedback provides correction. When it moves in approved directions, there is no negative feedback to damp the effect. The negative feedback is complex and contains many dimensions, not simply laws and law enforcement. We don't want people shooting children of course. What we do want is to not do what is required to stop it. In other words, we have a tremendous tolerance for this kind of killing, and it will increase until our tolerance level is reached, and then we will provide the feedback that stops it. The premise might be offered that it is "unstoppable." But that's not rational. What is usually meant by that is, "it isn't stoppable unless we (_________fill in______). Just examine each of the cases. You find the same features are present in each case. A deadly mix of half a dozen circumstances. To me, the most interesting feature is that the perps are not criminals until the very moment they pull the trigger. Society has a large "criminal" justice system. But when a person is not a "criminal" that system is of no value. I can't imagine how high out tolerance may be. But, I fear it is a LOT higher than yet exhibited. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The NRA has a lot of speaking points, but jobs are one of the ones that most people can relate to. There are many gun factories in America, and lots of hardworking taxpayers are employed in those factories. However, those skilled workers could be using their talents and energy making other kinds of things. When I lived in rural Quebec, 30 km. from Quebec City, there were not many local jobs. I moved to Toronto after graduating from high school, and Toronto and its surrounding area has lots of jobs, since it's a manufacturing and management centre for central Canada. I've stayed in touch with some of the folks in Quebec that I grew up with. One of them worked for a long time at an ammunition factory. It was originally called Dominion Arsenals, but was later bought by C-I-L, a name likely familiar to gun fans. It closed in 1991. Anyway, he worked on the .50 calibre line, making machinegun cartridges all day, every day. It's great to have a steady job that pays okay, especially when it's only about 15 minutes from home. However, earning a living by making pointy things that do a great job of killing people kind of got to him. These are not some kind of generic widgets that are neutral on a "helps/hurts people" spectrum, they're products that are designed to kill someone, no matter what he's hiding behind. That's what heavy machineguns are for. My point (at last!) is that there is a psychological and emotional cost to working in the arms industry. Those skilled workers could be making medical equipment, performance car parts, or even hi-fi gear. They would be healthier and happier. In a related note, what brought an end to the death penalty in the UK? I wasn't able to find a link today, but I remember reading that the workplace health and safety regulations were factors. More than a few of the executioners had problems with their marriages and with alcoholism. Eventually, the costs of the death penalty were seen as too high, while its deterrent value was in doubt. And now an American former executioner is speaking out against the death penalty: http://hamptonroads.com/2013/02/exvirginia-executioner-now-opposes-death-penalty Near the bottom of this next page, he mentions that PTSD is a problem for every member of the execution team. http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/how-do-you-get-a-job-as-an-executioner-in-america-526 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) This is a complex topic that is not just about more gun laws, factories making guns or the lack of mental healthcare in the US. There is a sickness in a society when these things become a regular part of daily life. A fresh look at cultural norms and values is needed. A thorough understanding of the problem has to happen first before applying more bandages to an exsanguinating society. As stated, a lot the individuals that do these horrific things don't have criminal records. Ture criminals don't buy guns from gun shops. They will have girlfriends, friends and relatives to get the guns. Law enforcement also need to be addressed. Neighborhood cops have a good handle on who is doing crime but, fail to act until something happens or are involved in illegal things in the neighborhood. Edited October 5, 2015 by derrickdj1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) I talk to people all over the world every day,,,They think we are crazy,,,, ON another thred on this forum,, The person that started the threads Avatar,, Had a automatic weapon Pictured,,, The European readers of the Klipsch forum thought it was in poor taste,, I felt that way too,,, Talking to some one in Sweden said to me ,,,"you get what you pay for"...He says,,, You have a militia and a police force,,But you still feel unsafe,, SO you still buy a weapon,, He said its like giving a innocent child matches,, Edited October 5, 2015 by ZAKO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 1. The shooters are not usually criminals right up to the moment they pull the trigger. So, cops and criminal justice and courts are out of the picture entirely. Almost always, all the guns are bought legally. Funny, huh? These are your so-called "law abiding citizens" who are preciously entitled to buy guns. 2. What are the trends that are interesting to examine? Prescriptions for anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, and ADHD related drugs are all on the rise. Economic prosperity is on the decline. Technology that enables siloing and isolation is on the rise. Access to information about violence (manifestos, instructionals and How-Tos) is massively on the rise. Unit to unit communication is on the rise. Classroom size is growing, after school activity is shrinking. Everything to do with guns is on the rise - models, sales outlets, unit sales, imports, manufacturing, advertising - all rising. The electronic soapbox is now global. 3. There is close to zero psychiatric facility infrastructure available due to rising cost, decreasing insurance coverage. 4. Pressure is UP! Way up. Opportunity is down, way down. 5. All new national values are established for such ideas as torture, pre-emptive war, remote killing through drones, too big to fail/jail. These represent new cultural values. All of that makes for a nasty stew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) And you tell me that we're not on the eve of destruction? Edited October 5, 2015 by oldtimer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Who cares what people in other countries think? Keith 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 There are other countries? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Yeah, those foreign lands that always need our young men to bring guns and help them out. Keith 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 And how do our young men come back...? Phisicly and mentaly damaged for life,,,... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Yeah, those foreign lands that always need our young men to bring guns and help them out. Yeah that's what our country is doing........we are totally looking out for everyone else but us Seriously our government just likes to "help" and then offer to take up their raw resources for payment. It's a form of rape. Edited October 5, 2015 by thesloth 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 And how do our young men come back...? Phisicly and mentaly damaged for life,,,... And it's always the poor fighting the rich's wars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 NOW you didn't have to say that,,,, I know several rich familys that lost their sons in war.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Yeah, those foreign lands that always need our young men to bring guns and help them out. Keith Seems a fair number made into Canada, sans guns, from the mid 1960's thru the early 1970's. At the end of the day many wanting to avoid fighting in someone else's civil war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Ya gotta love weekends around here... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I know several rich familys that lost their sons in war.. I am not talkin comfortable or wealthy, I am talking ultra rich. Like 1% rich. They pull the strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The NRA has a lot of speaking points, but jobs are one of the ones that most people can relate to. There are many gun factories in America, and lots of hardworking taxpayers are employed in those factories. However, those skilled workers could be using their talents and energy making other kinds of things. When I lived in rural Quebec, 30 km. from Quebec City, there were not many local jobs. I moved to Toronto after graduating from high school, and Toronto and its surrounding area has lots of jobs, since it's a manufacturing and management centre for central Canada. I've stayed in touch with some of the folks in Quebec that I grew up with. One of them worked for a long time at an ammunition factory. It was originally called Dominion Arsenals, but was later bought by C-I-L, a name likely familiar to gun fans. It closed in 1991. Anyway, he worked on the .50 calibre line, making machinegun cartridges all day, every day. It's great to have a steady job that pays okay, especially when it's only about 15 minutes from home. However, earning a living by making pointy things that do a great job of killing people kind of got to him. These are not some kind of generic widgets that are neutral on a "helps/hurts people" spectrum, they're products that are designed to kill someone, no matter what he's hiding behind. That's what heavy machineguns are for. My point (at last!) is that there is a psychological and emotional cost to working in the arms industry. Those skilled workers could be making medical equipment, performance car parts, or even hi-fi gear. They would be healthier and happier. In a related note, what brought an end to the death penalty in the UK? I wasn't able to find a link today, but I remember reading that the workplace health and safety regulations were factors. More than a few of the executioners had problems with their marriages and with alcoholism. Eventually, the costs of the death penalty were seen as too high, while its deterrent value was in doubt. And now an American former executioner is speaking out against the death penalty: http://hamptonroads.com/2013/02/exvirginia-executioner-now-opposes-death-penalty Near the bottom of this next page, he mentions that PTSD is a problem for every member of the execution team. http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/how-do-you-get-a-job-as-an-executioner-in-america-526 Couple of nits in your points above: For someone to make medical equipment, car parts or audio equipment, economics dictate the current demand would have to be greater than the existing supply of such items/equipment. The displaced ammunition workers' would most likely end up making widgets, strangling chickens for the Colonel or unemployed as very few people are very skilled on an automated ammunition line. I would doubt that many workers' in the arms/munition industry are feeling guilty or paying an emotional job related price unless they only employ rather irrational people. There is little difference between producing widgets and munitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Freak occurrence is called a "black swan." An asteroid hitting a building is such an occurrence. Since the Newtown School shootings, there have been 994 mass shootings in the US. So, mass shootings are not black swans. They are a basic and regular feature of our social structure. The rate of occurrence is on the rise. We are feeding the feature, making it rise, because that's how social systems work. Society has a feedback loop. When it moves in unwanted direction the negative feedback provides correction. When it moves in approved directions, there is no negative feedback to damp the effect. The negative feedback is complex and contains many dimensions, not simply laws and law enforcement. We don't want people shooting children of course. What we do want is to not do what is required to stop it. In other words, we have a tremendous tolerance for this kind of killing, and it will increase until our tolerance level is reached, and then we will provide the feedback that stops it. The premise might be offered that it is "unstoppable." But that's not rational. What is usually meant by that is, "it isn't stoppable unless we (_________fill in______). Just examine each of the cases. You find the same features are present in each case. A deadly mix of half a dozen circumstances. To me, the most interesting feature is that the perps are not criminals until the very moment they pull the trigger. Society has a large "criminal" justice system. But when a person is not a "criminal" that system is of no value. I can't imagine how high out tolerance may be. But, I fear it is a LOT higher than yet exhibited. The genie long ago left the bottle with respect to firearms. In Canada we have pretty stringent firearms laws but little control over the minds of the deranged people who mass murder others. They emptied the mental health facilities in the 1970's in both Canada and the US and the authorities cannot lock someone up simply because they suspect that an individual may be thinking irrationally. Man has been killing their fellow man for thousands of years, it started with pointy sticks or rocks. If all the guns resident in the US disappeared in a puff of smoke tomorrow people intent on mayhem would just use available other means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Guns are by no means the essence of the problem here. The toxic stew contains many ingredients that combine to make a uniquely deadly culture in the USA, which is not present in other countries of similar wealth and heritage. Everyone talks about the Gun, and seen not to smell the rest of the problem. Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajoker2c Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) They emptied the mental health facilities in the 1970's in both Canada and the US and the authorities cannot lock someone up simply because they suspect that an individual may be thinking irrationally. For Ontario, and possibly other provinces. But in Ontario, it was actually the mid 90's and not the 70's when the Conservative Harris Govt that allowed many people with mental health issues to be released without supervision. It was due to the transferred costs from provincial onto the municipal level that could not withstand the influx onto their resources.. The Ontario mental heath act was overhauled shortly after that included MHA forms(in particular forms 1&9), allowing detaining people who were a danger to themselves and others, so they could "lock up" potentially dangerous people for psychological assessments and possible further detainment. Edited October 5, 2015 by ajoker2c 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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