vindeville Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Same liberal thinkers that hate guns want legal drugs....Our president even pardons drug dealers cause they are non violent offenders....really???? how many die from drugs and violence related to drugs??(my sister was one). When you legitimize something, it takes away the black market, which is where the violence occurs. For example my ancestors were victims of the Black Patch War which nobody has ever heard of. Drug related deaths will not end regardless, and by legalizing we are taking the last possible deterrent for someone to NOT go down that road. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Patch_Tobacco_Wars So, based on this violence alone, should we ban tobacco? Sure...its a huge killer and a terrible burden on our health care system. But its legal now and funds many campaigns( see my consistency comment) How about government funded armed security in our schools for a start. Columbine had an armed guard, that did a lot of good huh. We would have to have a full time swat team in every school as well as metal detectors for every door. Should have had way more security there cause guns will never go away and neither will evil people. Id fund that in my taxes if I had the choice. Or teach others to use and carry guns safely to protect themselves...maybe teachers should carry. The rights of the law abiding folks should not be taken away by the criminals. It just shifts power to those who want to harm us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 5, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 5, 2015 What I don't understand is why is everyone focused on the mass killings and not everything else, which is way worse? Mass shootings are a drop in the bucket to all other types yet it is what everybody is afraid of. And the thing is, short of confisgation, you're not going to stop somebody who wants to do this. The cat is already out of the bag. Assault weapon bans don't stop anything. I think, but not sure, it's because the mass shootings get all the press. It was mass shootings in Australia and the UK that fueled changes in gun laws there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 5, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Same liberal thinkers that hate guns want legal drugs....Our president even pardons drug dealers cause they are non violent offenders....really???? how many die from drugs and violence related to drugs??(my sister was one).When you legitimize something, it takes away the black market, which is where the violence occurs. For example my ancestors were victims of the Black Patch War which nobody has ever heard of.Drug related deaths will not end regardless, and by legalizing we are taking the last possible deterrent for someone to NOT go down that road.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Patch_Tobacco_Wars So, based on this violence alone, should we ban tobacco?Sure...its a huge killer and a terrible burden on our health care system. But its legal now and funds many campaigns( see my consistency comment) How about government funded armed security in our schools for a start.Columbine had an armed guard, that did a lot of good huh. We would have to have a full time swat team in every school as well as metal detectors for every door.Should have had way more security there cause guns will never go away and neither will evil people. Id fund that in my taxes if I had the choice. Or teach others to use and carry guns safely to protect themselves...maybe teachers should carry. The rights of the law abiding folks should not be taken away by the criminals. It just shifts power to those who want to harm us.Well that is the party line, but I haven't seen that as a legislative proposal in response to a school shooting. It certainly was not what was proposed following Sandy Hook. Edited October 5, 2015 by dwilawyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 5, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 5, 2015 Well, apparently, neither of you decided to look at my link to the article and chart demonstrating that Switzerland, Norway and Finland had higher per capita rates of mass murders. Here it is again for convenience: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/22/barack-obama/barack-obama-correct-mass-killings-dont-happen-oth/ Yeah I read it, here is their correction at the bottom: "EDITOR’S NOTE, June 22, 2015: We heard from several of you regarding Obama's use of the word "frequency," and that frequency could refer to the incidents of mass shootings, not deaths as we examined. Looking at Obama's claim by incident, the United States has a higher rate of incidents than Finland, Norway and Switzerland." Lafayette, LA theater is not included in that data, it involved 2 deaths, 9 injured I believe. Why on earth would anybody use deaths and not include wounded in data on mass shootings? If an incident occurs closer to good medical attention it doesn't make the list because it involves less than 3/4 fatalities? That makes no sense to me. That raises an interesting point. What's worse? 2 incidents of 4 killings each, or 1 incident of 20 killings? I guess we need to settle on this before we can continue to argue our sides effectively. This is the most recent study I have seen. It is referenced in the Wall Street Journal article I linked to. It has been oresented, but not published yet. http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-united-states-mass-shooting-20150824-story.html Five percent of the population, 35% of the mass shootings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindeville Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 My initial point was lets be consistent and address all the things that take human lives, not focus on just guns. What are the stats on guns saving lives I wonder....better than abortions I bet. unwanted children are the one mistake in America it seems we can just throw away n forget....no special reports on those deaths. I am sorry for my distracting from the topic of this thread but its all related and all equal in regard to our human condition and what many politicians try to sell us. I've just been given my first granddaughter so I have been stewing lately more than normal on some things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 What about a cross eyed lunatic who goes to a public place, fires 20 times, and hits nothing? Brilliant! I liked your post back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 When you legitimize something, it takes away the black market, which is where the violence occurs. For example my ancestors were victims of the Black Patch War which nobody has ever heard of. Drug related deaths will not end regardless, and by legalizing we are taking the last possible deterrent for someone to NOT go down that road. That's why I said based on the violence alone. By legitimizing it we took away the seedy underbelly and black market for tobacco. If people want to destroy themselves by using it, that's their problem, mainly because they're going to use it anyway. That's the thing with marijuana... if you want it, it's already stupid easy to find. People who want it will get it. You're not stopping much of anything by continuing this war on it. But, the only way to get it now is to utilize a black market which is fueling the violence. Take away that black market and the violence goes WAY down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 http://www.latimes.c...0824-story.html Five percent of the population, 35% of the mass shootings. That's about on par with our wealth. 5% of the population, 25% of the wealth. Wealth causes mass murder! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 My initial point was lets be consistent and address all the things that take human lives, not focus on just guns. What are the stats on guns saving lives I wonder....better than abortions I bet. Oh, you're so rotten! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) http://www.naturalnews.com/039752_mass_shootings_psychiatric_drugs_antidepressants.html "Every mass shooting over last 20 years has one thing in common... and it's not guns" Edited October 5, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 What I don't understand is why is everyone focused on the mass killings and not everything else, which is way worse? Mass shootings are a drop in the bucket to all other types yet it is what everybody is afraid of. And the thing is, short of confisgation, you're not going to stop somebody who wants to do this. The cat is already out of the bag. Assault weapon bans don't stop anything. I agree. I think the media has a lot to do with it. There's no media sensation when a large city has 200 murders a year. But a psychotic shooter gets notoriety from a mass shooting. The mass shootings are just a small fraction of the murders in this country. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindeville Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 When you legitimize something, it takes away the black market, which is where the violence occurs. For example my ancestors were victims of the Black Patch War which nobody has ever heard of. Drug related deaths will not end regardless, and by legalizing we are taking the last possible deterrent for someone to NOT go down that road. That's why I said based on the violence alone. By legitimizing it we took away the seedy underbelly and black market for tobacco. If people want to destroy themselves by using it, that's their problem, mainly because they're going to use it anyway. That's the thing with marijuana... if you want it, it's already stupid easy to find. People who want it will get it. You're not stopping much of anything by continuing this war on it. But, the only way to get it now is to utilize a black market which is fueling the violence. Take away that black market and the violence goes WAY down. I understand what you are saying, I'm just not sure we should make things legal as it would be seen as condoning it. We are bound to one another in our society in every way and I just see a lot of bad things for us all if we become to willing to legalize drugs any further. I am conflicted on this in some ways but ultimately I just think "where does it stop" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercedesBerater Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The title of the thread is "you get what you want in society" Here is what I believe to be some out of the gun debate issues that causes our rampant gun problem. 1) problem: wealth inequality has parents working multiple jobs to keep their family unit afloat Cause: Families are not together as much, less parental supervision and bonding and raising children 2) problem: education system bogs kids down with homework and the mindset that more work equates to smarter kids Cause: kids are stressed with more homework than ever, more activities like sports, dance, band, tutoring, and anything and everything to build their resume to get into college, instead of learning. This puts huge stress on kids, and they don't have time to play and learn to problem solve on their own, or build relationship skills. 3) problem: Technology. Facebook, Twitter, iPads, video games Cause: kids have their faces stuck in a screen and have no relationship skills, they either are part of the club or are an outcast. And then the outcasts are pointed out with all the social media... I think this society we've created is causing mental health issues that coupled with the easy access to human killing tools -- lets be honest, that's what guns are designed for - turns into rampant murders... Whether in a school, or on the streets. Just an idea as to something other than guns being the only issue. Still don't like guns, but I respect the 2nd amendment right to own a firearm. But it's the only amendment that has the phrase "well regulated" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDirt Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) SO what is the profile of the mass killers? Are they all: Male Caucasian Poor Angry Drugged NRA love-spawn Educated QBox toting Societal hermits? We profiled airline passengers post 9/11, didn't we? So if it IS the drugs, or guns, or PS3s that are causing this behavior, let's cut them out. But it must first be identified. Put away your personal politics and get to the root. Was this kid not hugged enough? Was this kid not disciplined enough? Was this kid lost in school? The Von Maur shooting locally happened some 20 minutes after my sister-in-law and toddler nephew left that store. You all know of someone either directly or indirectly affected by this behavior. The word victim is not strong enough. Do we have to make it a for-profit point before something happens to stop it? Edited October 5, 2015 by JoeDirt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldenough Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The title of the thread is "you get what you want in society" Here is what I believe to be some out of the gun debate issues that causes our rampant gun problem. 1) problem: wealth inequality has parents working multiple jobs to keep their family unit afloat Cause: Families are not together as much, less parental supervision and bonding and raising children 2) problem: education system bogs kids down with homework and the mindset that more work equates to smarter kids Cause: kids are stressed with more homework than ever, more activities like sports, dance, band, tutoring, and anything and everything to build their resume to get into college, instead of learning. This puts huge stress on kids, and they don't have time to play and learn to problem solve on their own, or build relationship skills. 3) problem: Technology. Facebook, Twitter, iPads, video games Cause: kids have their faces stuck in a screen and have no relationship skills, they either are part of the club or are an outcast. And then the outcasts are pointed out with all the social media... I think this society we've created is causing mental health issues that coupled with the easy access to human killing tools -- lets be honest, that's what guns are designed for - turns into rampant murders... Whether in a school, or on the streets. Just an idea as to something other than guns being the only issue. Still don't like guns, but I respect the 2nd amendment right to own a firearm. But it's the only amendment that has the phrase "well regulated" Don't these things also exist in other countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teaman Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) We can pass all the laws we want. Unfortunately evil people and criminals don't adhere to school postings of gun free or drug free zones. The more guns you take away from legal law abiding owners, the more the scale tips in favor of those who break the laws. No matter how tight our security measures are we will never completely do away with gun violence issues. The gov't will never take care of the mentally ill just as they will never properly compensaate our military. The present gov't feels that the military and police forces are overly compensated and should be done away with. Once again a few bad apples bring to light all of the issues of the many good people in the forces. All you have to do is look at the shooting/homicide rate of Chicago to see clearly that tighter gun laws mean nothing. Edited October 5, 2015 by teaman 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Here's what we've proven through the culmination of all our posts: Nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 We, as a nation, are using way more pharmaceuticals. Our military men and women have received a high percentage of vaccines which contain aluminum (which replaced the mercury). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 5, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 5, 2015 My initial point was lets be consistent and address all the things that take human lives, not focus on just guns. What are the stats on guns saving lives I wonder....better than abortions I bet. unwanted children are the one mistake in America it seems we can just throw away n forget....no special reports on those deaths. I am sorry for my distracting from the topic of this thread but its all related and all equal in regard to our human condition and what many politicians try to sell us. I've just been given my first granddaughter so I have been stewing lately more than normal on some things. It weakens your argument. Gun ownership and abortion are both constitutionally protected rights. If you intertwine two completely separate issues it tends to obscure whatever valid points you have concerning the discussion at hand. They cannot be compared or treated the same because different arguments apply. To accept your proposition that a termination of pregnancy be counted as a "death" or treated equally would require that one assume that it's availability is not protected under the Constitution. That is clearly not the case under current law. It requires a logical fiction. I don't see abortion as being related to mass shootings, but I could be wrong. On a more important note, congratulations on your granddaughter, she must be bringing you quite a lot of joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I'm just not sure we should make things legal as it would be seen as condoning it. Making things legal may just be a perfectly reasonable response to the fact that prohibition is a failed and wildly expensive policy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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