mikebse2a3 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) Well, I think that will about kill this thread.....it's been.....interesting..... Isn't that what Arkytype and Al have been trying to do from the beginning...? They have continuously attacked John and thrown insults at him in almost every post they make..!!! They should not be rewarded for their shameful actions in my opinion by killing his thread ..!!! We've been here before Folks: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/157048-locking-threads-due-to-bad-personnel-attacks/?hl=%2Bthreads+%2Blocked The "Quality" of this forum will only be as good as the "Quality" of those who participate.!!! John has shown real restraint and class throughout this thread in my opinion also. It's like an Adult being hounded by two "misbehaving children"..! miketn Edited October 22, 2015 by mikebse2a3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Actually, they happen to be complex impedance plots. Bode plots consist of 2 plots – both have logarithm of frequency on x-axis o y-axis magnitude of transfer function, H(s), in dB o y-axis phase angle As somebody once said "who cares" ! And Lee: I like to put it this way: "education is no substituet for brains" BTW: I would hate to see this thread end. I haven't been in such a fun urinating contest since I was banned! Al K. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Great info and man, those Pics of crossovers are outstanding. Iv done pretty well in life without knowing what a "Bode Plot" is and will continue to do so. Iv never takin on a hobby that was as serious as what is discussed here, just do not care, way too much life out there. I will continue to Pizz off neighbors/wildlife/birds as PWK intended it. I do like skimming over the chat, but this "Chat" shows signs of stress, and stress kills. aint no hobby worth that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 No plans on locking the thread as long as it stays technical and not personal. You guys do live close to the edge however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Well, I think that will about kill this thread.....it's been.....interesting..... Isn't that what Arkytype and Al have been trying to do from the beginning...? They have continuously attacked John and thrown insults at him in almost every post they make..!!! They should not be rewarded for their shameful actions in my opinion by killing his thread ..!!! We've been here before Folks: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/157048-locking-threads-due-to-bad-personnel-attacks/?hl=%2Bthreads+%2Blocked The "Quality" of this forum will only be as good as the "Quality" of those who participate.!!! John has shown real restraint and class throughout this thread in my opinion also. It's like an Adult being hounded by two "misbehaving children"..! miketn Well, let's be realistic. Regardless of who is making the specific statements, this thread has devolved into "I'm right, you're wrong", "I have more brains", "I'm a real engineer and you're not", "Who cares?",.... I'd bet that a lot of the people reading this thread are only in it to see who insults who next. Not all, but many. Can't you just say "I disagree, and here's why", instead of "you're an idiot and here's why"? Sure, maybe there's some value in the portions of the technical "discussion", but that value is quickly being degraded by the not so slight attacks on experience, education and the like. Personally, I've lost whatever remaining respect I had for some of the participants due to those rather crude and (IMHO) uncalled for attacks, regardless of who initiated it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Well, let's be realistic. Regardless of who is making the specific statements, this thread has devolved into "I'm right, you're wrong", "I have more brains", "I'm a real engineer and you're not", "Who cares?",.... I'd bet that a lot of the people reading this thread are only in it to see who insults who next. Not all, but many. Can't you just say "I disagree, and here's why", instead of "you're an idiot and here's why"? Sure, maybe there's some value in the portions of the technical "discussion", but that value is quickly being degraded by the not so slight attacks on experience, education and the like. Personally, I've lost whatever remaining respect I had for some of the participants due to those rather crude and (IMHO) uncalled for attacks, regardless of who initiated it. Good points Jim..! Self - Praise and Denigration of Others: http://www.arrowriver.ca/mara/mara10.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuy Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 i like it !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 22, 2015 Moderators Share Posted October 22, 2015 At least John understands the difference between "sensitivity" and "efficiency." You would think that would be important to a designer who designs with impedance curves in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) The primary difference between you and Dick Heyser is that only one of you seems to be educated beyond his intelligence. Lee And Lee: I like to put it this way: "education is no substituet for brains" If a person uses his "Brains" or "Intelligence" or "Education" then he should know that "Respectful Debate" accomplishes more than Denigrating Insults..! And Arkytype please let up on the spelling insults even your friend AL makes them as in the post I quoted here and last I checked no one is perfect around here? miketn Edited October 23, 2015 by mikebse2a3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I don't care about the cat fighting. I mean, they are adults, and both are able to skip off if they like. The big take away to me is that nobody has any respect or love for Klipsch corporation crossovers, whether they were designed by the big man himself, or not! It pretty much seems that the cognoscenti buy the K speakers, replace all the drivers and horns and crossovers with other designs, and just use the wooden box and day they are using "Klipsch speakers." I'm hard pressed to believe that a couple dudes in their garage know more about crossovers than the King of Speakers? Learning a lot. I hope no one panic over trivial insults and closes it down. Let's remember these are not children or dogs that need protection! Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 John, You wrote: "what can you do other than do what the ALK expects of you?" I guess someone at Klipsch removed the "double you tee eff" you started that mangled sentence with. While Al & I both suffer fools lightly, neither of us "expects" the other to do anything. Fortunately, we are of like minds on this thread's topic and as a result, our respective posts may overlap with similar sentiments. For those of you who don't know why John posted the two un-captioned Bode plots 10/21/15 @ 8:47, I'll tell you. The Bode plot on the right was a measurement by the late Richard C. Heyser, inventor of Time Delay Spectrometry or TDS. That Bode plot is part of the test report of a Klipschorn which appeared in the November, 1986 issue of Audio magazine. Guess John thinks that because Dick Heyser, PhD, presented his Bode plot, ol' John was in good company by posting his. The only thing you and the late Dick Heyser have in common is that you both have PhD degrees. The primary difference between you and Dick Heyser is that only one of you seems to be educated beyond his intelligence. Lee Rather unlikely that one can be educated beyond his intelligence. At least, not successfully so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) "The big take away to me is that nobody has any respect or love for Klipsch corporation crossovers, whether they were designed by the big man himself..." Whoa there, I do. http://www.aletheiaaudio.com https://m.facebook.com/AletheiaAudio PWK put frequency response fourth on his list of things that matter, which is good, because compression drivers on horns aren't always pretty in that regard, but they still sound good, right? The original networks were based on a rather simple idea -- find some drivers which are fairly linear, and just string them together. The Type A has four parts. Both the original filters as well as the parts that were used were considered rather lossy by today's standards. I build the way I do because after building or trying every different way possible, I found out that my personal preference was for the old filters using primarily paper in oil capacitors. We will now hear how terrible the old crossovers are and how the parts are even worse. I'll respond to that now and just say that if another way of building sounded better, I'd be using it. You can rebuild with modern metalized or film type polypropylenes, but then you have to rebalance things, but even after you're done, it doesn't sound anything like the original vintage builds. However, it IS the most cost effective way of doing it. I've owned highly modified Klipschorns as well as Jubilees, but because of stressed financials, now listen to stock LaScalas. I use the Type AA crossover, and saved for the capacitors I wanted. Bigger drivers and horns have their place, but that doesn't mean you have to complicate the filter. Enter John's solution. You can still keep it relatively simple, build with films, and offer some slight adjustments in attenuation to balance the drivers out to account for personal taste. Sorry about the self-promotion John, but the thread has gone way off it's original mark and I couldn't let that comment go. Edited October 23, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 For those of you who don't know why John posted the two un-captioned Bode plots 10/21/15 @ 8:47, I'll tell you. The Bode plot on the right was a measurement by the late Richard C. Heyser, inventor of Time Delay Spectrometry or TDS. That Bode plot is part of the test report of a Klipschorn which appeared in the November, 1986 issue of Audio magazine. Guess John thinks that because Dick Heyser, PhD, presented his Bode plot, ol' John was in good company by posting his. Lee I inserted the Z plot from the Heyser article because it labels the Y and X axis that I didn't bother labeling on mine. BTW, the Heyser woofer is a little different than what I measured. I had a K33E in the one I measured with about 22 Ohms at Fs, he's showing 15Ohms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 """The big take away to me is that nobody has any respect or love for Klipsch corporation crossovers, whether they were designed by the big man himself, or not! It pretty much seems that the cognoscenti buy the K speakers, replace all the drivers and horns and crossovers with other designs, and just use the wooden box and day they are using "Klipsch speakers." I'm hard pressed to believe that a couple dudes in their garage know more about crossovers than the King of Speakers?""" I would say this is not how I vision it. Although I do believe your statement is one Hypothetical.... In this thread, I see those that may agree with the above and then there is the other end saying that Bone stock Klipsch would be the way to keep it and that anything else is pure Heresy!!! I'm, neither. I would have a hard time believing that a large number of Klipsch forum posters are just complete idiots to think that replacing Klipsch Heritage speakers with another crossover is just a game of them kidding themselves....because..."it's all just a conspiracy" or .."it's just Klipsch using a budget cut design on XO's to generate a profit"...or "Those Klipsch engineers are too proud or have too big of an ego to outsource a filter expert". So there must be something to it....for one look how many people are looking at this thread. Is it just for the joy of seeing designers bicker? So would I buy a pair of Klipsch RF7-II or Flagship Palladiums and immediately yank the XO's because I know I could better. Heck no. The majority of XO replacement on this forum is usually regarding 1. Heritage speakers or those that have 2. modified the Heritage line or 3. those that have a DIY design of their own that is a take-off of Heritage....like Cornscalas. 2 and 3 need a new design because there may be different drivers involved with different FR or SPL. All done at the consumers risk. So would I buy a pair of La scalas with AL networks in them and think that I can't do better? I bought a pair like that once that was about 8 years old so I wouldn't say the caps were old. They sounded terrible. I couldn't believe it. I have been through KG series, fortes, Heresies....and the la scala was an upgrade. When I would show them off to other people...I really wouldn't play them....I just kinda said "hey look at these cool things I got." I left them that way for years and really listened to my KG5.2's instead. Then one day I took a chance and bought non-Klipsch networks from a forum member here and threw away the old networks. Now that was definately the best sounding klipsch I had heard in my house ever up to that point. So in my opinion, non-Klipsch network discussion is of value to hear about ...... not for the reason of no respect for Klipsch Crossovers. We all here love Klipsch....I know I do better than any other speaker company by far. Having said that, I don't have a problem considering a non Klipsch network in one of their speakers. Worth hearing about IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 The big take away to me is that nobody has any respect or love for Klipsch corporation crossovers You couldn't be more wrong. This forum and the tweekaholics that frequent here are a mere fraction of Klipsch owners and do not represent the average Klipsch owner. This is like saying that whoever designed the small block Chevrolet had no idea what he was doing as there are so many people modifying them. What crossovers do you run in your speakers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 This signature says it all. A Klipsch forum "moderator" with over 20,000 posts. So is this person a Klipsch fan? Does this person have respect for Klipsch networks? Kudos...I think this a person with all kinds of respect for Klipsch including the engineers....... ----------------------------- A Harmony One remote runs a............. Pioneer Elite KURO 150FD display. Anthem D2 pre-pro. 4 QSC PLX 1104 amps. Oppo BDP-80 Blu-ray player. Toshiba XA2 HDDVD player. IB sub with 4 Ascendant Audio 18" drivers powered by a Behringer EP-2500. 2 Klipsch Dean G'd RF-7's, 1 Dean G'd RC-7, 2 RS-7's and 2 RB-35's, all protected by a Furman Elite 20-PFiBedroom 1, Lascalas w/ ALK networks and Crites tweeters, Juicy Music modded Crown D-45, Njoe Tjoeb CD player and an Anthem TLP-1. Tuba 18 sub powered by a Behringer A-500.Bedroom 2, Heresy II's with III upgrade, Carver TFM-15, Carver CT-6 and a Sony CDP C235.Bedroom 3, Cornscalas with Fastrack horns and Deans battery biased B2's, Ampsandsounds Stereo 15 and Transcendant Sounds Grounded Grid pre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 In case anyone is wondering, this is what a "Bode Plot" looks like. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bode_plot John, I never noticed that before, how did Heyser get a complex impedance measurement like that one, using a K-33-E? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 This signature says it all. A Klipsch forum "moderator" with over 20,000 posts. So is this person a Klipsch fan? Does this person have respect for Klipsch networks? Kudos...I think this a person with all kinds of respect for Klipsch including the engineers....... ----------------------------- A Harmony One remote runs a............. Pioneer Elite KURO 150FD display. Anthem D2 pre-pro. 4 QSC PLX 1104 amps. Oppo BDP-80 Blu-ray player. Toshiba XA2 HDDVD player. IB sub with 4 Ascendant Audio 18" drivers powered by a Behringer EP-2500. 2 Klipsch Dean G'd RF-7's, 1 Dean G'd RC-7, 2 RS-7's and 2 RB-35's, all protected by a Furman Elite 20-PFi Bedroom 1, Lascalas w/ ALK networks and Crites tweeters, Juicy Music modded Crown D-45, Njoe Tjoeb CD player and an Anthem TLP-1. Tuba 18 sub powered by a Behringer A-500. Bedroom 2, Heresy II's with III upgrade, Carver TFM-15, Carver CT-6 and a Sony CDP C235. Bedroom 3, Cornscalas with Fastrack horns and Deans battery biased B2's, Ampsandsounds Stereo 15 and Transcendant Sounds Grounded Grid pre. If this is a dig at my crossovers, only the networks in my Reference series speakers were modified for the sake of modification. I bought my Lascalas with the ALK's in them already from another forum member (Mike Lindsey). The Cornscallas had the big silver original caps that were leaking and had to be rebuilt. The Heresy's are stock. My surrounds and rears in the HT are stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 The AL/AB/AK series of networks were deigned to be used with the EV K-55-M. The driver measures better than the spring loaded Atlas K-55-V, but really bombs out with those networks. The FR and sensitivity of the two drivers are close enough that I just tell people to drop back to the AA regardless of what driver they're using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) JC doesn't do that. He was actually complimenting you. He makes a good point - you're running just about everything there is -even those damnable charge coupled B2s. I really do love the battery thing. Edited October 23, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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