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John Warren

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It’s this forth plot however where the rubber meets the road.

These are the FFT measurements of each net connected to the mid horn.   The green and gold plots are the electrical signals measured at the terminals of PD5VH.  A cross-correlated impulse (time-domain) is sent thru the system (amp, net and mid horn) and the analyzer measures the response at the driver terminals.  Using Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) the analyzer coverts the measured impulse into the frequency domain spectrum.  That’s what Channel 1 measures and is what’s plotted in the green and gold plots.

 

For yuks, I also plotted the total group delay at the bottom.  Consider this a measure of phase distortion (for all intents and purposes SAME).

 

What’s important is the red plot, that’s what Channel 2 is measuring, the FFT taken at the amplifier terminals.   The amp does not care, one iota, that Belle is climbing Mt. Washington.

 

(note the NRE-net is really designed for the other system and the somewhat higher output at the top corner of the pass-band is to offset the enhanced sensitivity of the Selenium-B&C unit at the lower frequencies). 

post-864-0-15940000-1445791918_thumb.png

Edited by John Warren

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 The fifth plot is the simulation of the two nets.  As is shown, the measured and the simulated responses are in reasonable agreement.

post-864-0-55900000-1445791990_thumb.png

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I agree, I think Lee and I have accomplished what we intended to do, debunk some snake-oil.  Once this thread has run out of gass I plan to retire back to oblivion where I came from.  It's entirely up to how much more techno double-talk gets put up.  There is simply nobody else around here to do it. 

 

BTW: I sure wish I knew how to spell!  :sad:

 

Al K.

 

 

The definition of "snake-oil" is a product designed to solve a problem that does not exist.

 

:lol:

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Wikipedia has a decent definition, "Snake oil is an expression that originally referred to fraudulent health products or unproven medicine but has come to refer to any product with questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit." not to cure a problem that doesn't exist. If you are especially devious I suppose you could invent a problem and then "cure" it.

Thing is... Maybe I like the taste... Kind of like chicken. Can't verify my taste though.

Don't worry about spelling. Some of the best engineers I've ever known spell worse than a first grader. Correct grammar is also optional.

Edited by muel

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Simulation tools allow for fine tuning the network component values and predicting how the change alters the response at the driver terminals. 

post-864-0-88340000-1445797647_thumb.png

Edited by John Warren

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Nothing is snake oil if the owner hears a difference.  Science has completely failed to predict the qualities of concert halls so far.  Some work, others don't all using the same methodologies.

 

The ultimate test of anything isn't done on the bench, but by one or more listeners whose experience may or may not agree.  But both are right and to the extent one says the other is wrong he is an arrogant and bigoted individual.  To the extent that they coexist with their differing perceptions, crack a bottle of whiskey and enjoy the music is true civilization. 

 

Dave

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Warren,

 

How about you posting the schematic and parts values on your network so I can do a little "simulation" on it.  Everybody has had the design and values on my Universal for years.   Including "group delay", as if it mattered!  You might start by telling us what it actually is!  All the "simulations" I did on yours was by assuming you got the parts values correct for an ordinary 3rd order Butterworth diplexer.  That might not have been a valid assumption.

 

BTW:  Your measurements are all screwed up! 

 

Al K.

Edited by Al Klappenberger

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I have noted that in may cases JW will resort to Techno double-talk to cover his butt when he runs out of serious points.  Now that the obscene items have been taken down by the moderators he has nothing else left!  These latest plots about my Universal are such a total fantasy that I don't know where to begin!  It's going to take me a while to travel to never-never land to try to understand how some of that crap could possibly have been fabricated, but I will!  

 

WOW! 

 

Al K.

 

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@@John Warren, @@John Warren,

1. The NRE-net has a very large reactance associated with the autotransformer, horn reflections, etc. The reactance is highlighted by our little mountain climber (let’s call her Belle). 2. Below about 500Hz, the two plots meld together as the K-horn Z dominates at lower frequencies. 3. The BULK of amplifier power is delivered to the Klipschorn bass unit so amp loading, if altered in anyway why the speaker loading, is going to be the result of this reactance. 4. Now, the midrange on the ALK is sort-of constant Z but it's over a region where the amp really doesn't care.

 

1.  The NRE-net has a very large reactance associated with the autotransformer, horn reflections, etc.  The reactance is highlighted by our little mountain climber (let’s call her Belle).

  * This is because your transformer is in the wrong place!

 

2.  Below about 500Hz, the two plots meld together as the K-horn Z dominates at lower frequencies.

  * It dominates because the crossover directs the energy to the woofer. This is why you see the resonance of the K33 at about 36 Hz. The impedance plots diverge because the amplifier sees you poor midrange filter above the 400 Hz crossover. There is NO GOOD REASON FOR THAT!

 

3.  The BULK of amplifier power is delivered to the Klipschorn bass unit so amp loading, if altered in anyway why the speaker loading, is going to be the result of this reactance.

  * Double-talk!  It's the inductive reactance of the K33 woofer.  Same with the phase plots. It's the K33 your looking at!  None of this is relevant to the network.  If you had bothered to look at my earlier posts illustrating the effects of the K33 on the lowpass filter of the ES300 network you MIGHT understand that I explained this in detail!

 

4.  Now, the midrange on the ALK is sort-of constant Z but it's over a region where the amp really doesn't care.

* And just what range is it that the amp doesn't care about?  A good amp doesn't care over any frequency range.  This is the simply an excuse to do a crappy design. A little SET amp DOES care though. It can't handle extreme peaks like yours shows, at ANY frequency. It actually louses up the frequency response as the little amp unloads! There is no good reason to subject any amp to a 23 Ohm peak in the middle of the midrange!

-------------------
* This entire set of plots simply illustrates a poor design. YOURS!  DUMB!

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This third plot is the Z-complex of both the ALK so-called “universal” super-imposed over the NRE-net. The large blue “loop” is the reactance peak that Belle was hiking in the first plot. Compare it to the red tail on the ALK, that’s the difference-it is substantial.

 

The next plot. The polar one:

Now this is very clever.. Just stick up a plot showing the same thing as before again. The travels of Belle around in a circle. It's just REPITITION!  We know what the complex impedance of the K33 looks like.  I WENT THROUGH THAT EARLIER!

Another trick associated with techno double-talk. Say the same thing over and over using different fancy words, or plots!  We'll dazzle them with a round one this time! 

 

Al K.

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This third plot is the Z-complex of both the ALK so-called “universal” super-imposed over the NRE-net. The large blue “loop” is the reactance peak that Belle was hiking in the first plot. Compare it to the red tail on the ALK, that’s the difference-it is substantial.

 

 Your next plot:

 

Here you have two plots on top each other. The difference is simply that you have a different value inductor in series with the K33 woofer than I do. That's why the circles move apart in the vertical reactance plane! BIG DEAL! The reason the "Universal" is universal is because it has a 1st order filter in the woofer channel. Just like yours. 1st order filters are so blasted sloppy that it doesn't matter what inductor you use! It will work equally poorly with any woofer. All a 1st order filter does is make two drivers play nice together! Take the inductor out completely like PWK did with the AB network for the Belle Klipsch and you will be left with the K33 alone. If you do that the circle will shift the other direction. 

 

This is yet more of your techo double-talk, or more accurately, double vision!

 

Al K

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Warren,

Including "group delay", as if it mattered! 

 

Al K.

 

 

Ok...  The sock-pupet formally requests the fillowing plots on your network:

 

* Complex impedance in R magnitude and polar phase seen my the amplifier using real driver loads.

   I can accept R +-jX too if you like.

* Group delay and insertion Phase through the mid-range port.

* Absolute insertion loss of the midrange channel. (no shelving)

* Absolute loss through the tweeter filter.  (No problem here - yours doen't provide shelving).

 

BTW: I already gave these plots to Lee a day or so ago in case this came up..  Maybe he will post them for me after you post yours.

 

Al K.

 

 

you asked for the group delay... 

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It’s this forth plot however where the rubber meets the road. These are the FFT measurements of each net connected to the mid horn. The green and gold plots are the electrical signals measured at the terminals of PD5VH. A cross-correlated impulse (time-domain) is sent thru the system (amp, net and mid horn) and the analyzer measures the response at the driver terminals. Using Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) the analyzer coverts the measured impulse into the frequency domain spectrum. That’s what Channel 1 measures and is what’s plotted in the green and gold plots. For yuks, I also plotted the total group delay at the bottom. Consider this a measure of phase distortion (for all intents and purposes SAME). What’s important is the red plot, that’s what Channel 2 is measuring, the FFT taken at the amplifier terminals. The amp does not care, one iota, that Belle is climbing Mt. Washington. (note the NRE-net is really designed for the other system and the somewhat higher output at the top corner of the pass-band is to offset the enhanced sensitivity of the Selenium-B&C unit at the lower frequencies). Attached Thumbnails

 

WOW..   This plot shows very cleary that my Universal beats the tar out you thing!  MAN!  This is the ultimate insult to the Klipsch community.  Do you really think the people interested in this thread can't read a plot! 

 

Speaking of FFT.. I could always use the foruier analysis section of PCFILT to show the impulse response of both networks (in the time domain you mentioned earlier), but it's not worth the trouble!

 

You just keep embarrassing yourself to anyone who knows anyting!

 

GO AWAY!

 

Al K

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I said it wasn't worth the trouble to calculate the time domain response of your "thing" but I changed my mind.  It was fun! Here's what a 2KHz square wave would look like out of your midrange channel.

 

Al K.

 

 

post-835-0-26860000-1445814148_thumb.jpg

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This third plot is the Z-complex of both the ALK so-called “universal” super-imposed over the NRE-net. The large blue “loop” is the reactance peak that Belle was hiking in the first plot. Compare it to the red tail on the ALK, that’s the difference-it is substantial.

 

 Your next plot:

 

Here you have two plots on top each other. The difference is simply that you have a different value inductor in series with the K33 woofer than I do. That's why the circles move apart in the vertical reactance plane! BIG DEAL! The reason the "Universal" is universal is because it has a 1st order filter in the woofer channel. Just like yours. 1st order filters are so blasted sloppy that it doesn't matter what inductor you use! It will work equally poorly with any woofer. All a 1st order filter does is make two drivers play nice together! Take the inductor out completely like PWK did with the AB network for the Belle Klipsch and you will be left with the K33 alone. If you do that the circle will shift the other direction. 

 

This is yet more of your techo double-talk, or more accurately, double vision!

 

Al K

 

 

Same inductor in both plots, same Klipschorn bass unit. 

 

All did was swap the midrange filters, the bass horn and series inductor is the same (can't you see that?)

 

Why should I waste my time with you when you read (or comprehend) 1/2 of what's provided to you?

 

 

 

 

post-864-0-98500000-1445814607_thumb.png

Edited by John Warren

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I said it wasn't worth the trouble to calculate the time domain response of your "thing" but I changed my mind.  It was fun! Here's what a 2KHz square wave would look like out of your midrange channel.

 

Al K.

 

But you do know that if you limit the bandwidth of a device, say from going from 1st order to third order LP, you also reduce it's transient response and hence it's square wave response. 

 

Bandwidth is related to transient behavior, it's the physics.

 

geesh.....

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BTW:  Your measurements are all screwed up! 

 

Al K.

 

This is what I got for the impedance magnitude of the breadboard I cobbled for the ALK universal connected to the K401+PD5VH.  I think it looks pretty gosh darn good.  Between 500-5000Hz it's around 9-10 Ohms.  It might not be "perfect" but I think it's what you classify as good design practice.

 

On my rig, everything Klipsch ever did and just about every commercial network designed, we measure huge peaks everywhere.

 

Anyway, I think this thread really is done and I hope you burn another three or four days hammering away at it.

 

I'll be hiking in Oregon this week!

post-864-0-89180000-1445817015_thumb.jpg

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Hey John,

 

If you see Belle while mountain climbing, say hello for us!

 

Lee

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