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John Warren

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Free speech doesn't apply here, it is a bad analogy. Any one can create their own web site and be as condescending, arrogant or hateful to their heart's content.

When you go on a public forum, such as this one, it is per their rules.

Free speech is vital to a free society, it isn't vital to an internet audio forum.

I agree that there was something to be learned; some did, some didn't, and some never will.

I suspect they will be learning now.

I think you missed my point.

Everyone, me included, understand that the owner of site can do as they wish. It's a given. I also did not argue that this was a free speech zone. I merely cited that our "inclination" in the USA is to embrace free speech as a value. You DO get that, I hope?

My point was to address what makes people enjoy or not enjoy forums, based on a set of assumptions. It's just an opinion, and that's why at the end I said it was NOT a suggestion. I wasn't asking anyone to change anything. I was speculating on the value of knowing what these actors were about. And, I was claiming that I found lots of value in seeing them act out their parts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Klipsch can do whatever it wants. That's just boring boilerplate and had nothing to do with my post.

What was your point?

Life is like literature amd we need to see characters evolve to understand their real meaning?

Or that someone posting "content" has an ownership interest in their content?

Wouldn't it be simpler for people to be civil, didpomatic and not condescending and for those who are interested in the "character" behind the author to correspond with them privately?

Edited by dwilawyer

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"Content"? That came up recently on here. The TOS is clear that posting on here becomes the property of the host. There is no argument on that, if you choose to post here you agree to that. You can post, or not.

"Content", interesting choice of words there, and an interesting and familar sounding argument.

 

Again, I made no argument about the TOS. None whatsoever. 

 

What else can you call a member's typed words if not "content?" It's a word used ubiquitously throughout the entire Internet. But since it offends you, perhaps I'll call it "people's typed out words and pictures."

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Free speech doesn't apply here, it is a bad analogy. Any one can create their own web site and be as condescending, arrogant or hateful to their heart's content.

When you go on a public forum, such as this one, it is per their rules.

Free speech is vital to a free society, it isn't vital to an internet audio forum.

I agree that there was something to be learned; some did, some didn't, and some never will.

I suspect they will be learning now.

I think you missed my point.

Everyone, me included, understand that the owner of site can do as they wish. It's a given. I also did not argue that this was a free speech zone. I merely cited that our "inclination" in the USA is to embrace free speech as a value. You DO get that, I hope?

My point was to address what makes people enjoy or not enjoy forums, based on a set of assumptions. It's just an opinion, and that's why at the end I said it was NOT a suggestion. I wasn't asking anyone to change anything. I was speculating on the value of knowing what these actors were about. And, I was claiming that I found lots of value in seeing them act out their parts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Klipsch can do whatever it wants. That's just boring boilerplate and had nothing to do with my post.

What was your point?

 

 

I wouldn't think retyping it out would be of any additional value. It's as clear as a bell in the original post. 

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"Content" has a particular meaning in the copyright context. It doesn't offend me at all.

Recently a long time member with thousands of posts left this forum and right before his departure started to use the term "content" to refer to his previous posts.

I just thought it was an interesting choice of words is all.

"Content" certainly works, so does "their post" or "their words" or "their thoughts."

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Free speech doesn't apply here, it is a bad analogy. Any one can create their own web site and be as condescending, arrogant or hateful to their heart's content.

When you go on a public forum, such as this one, it is per their rules.

Free speech is vital to a free society, it isn't vital to an internet audio forum.

I agree that there was something to be learned; some did, some didn't, and some never will.

I suspect they will be learning now.

I think you missed my point.

Everyone, me included, understand that the owner of site can do as they wish. It's a given. I also did not argue that this was a free speech zone. I merely cited that our "inclination" in the USA is to embrace free speech as a value. You DO get that, I hope?

My point was to address what makes people enjoy or not enjoy forums, based on a set of assumptions. It's just an opinion, and that's why at the end I said it was NOT a suggestion. I wasn't asking anyone to change anything. I was speculating on the value of knowing what these actors were about. And, I was claiming that I found lots of value in seeing them act out their parts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Klipsch can do whatever it wants. That's just boring boilerplate and had nothing to do with my post.

What was your point?

I wouldn't think retyping it out would be of any additional value. It's as clear as a bell in the original post.
I accidentally hit send before I put in my content relating to the clarification I was seeking. I appologize for that. Edited by dwilawyer

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I accidentally hit send before I put in my content relating to the clarification I was seeking. I appologize for that.
that's forgivable Travis...i've hit send and then realized that i sent a private email to the wrong person...talk about a instant rise of blood pressure.

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I accidentally hit send before I put in my content relating to the clarification I was seeking. I appologize for that.

that's forgivable Travis...i've hit send and then realized that i sent a private email to the wrong person...talk about a instant rise of blood pressure.

I cannot type on these phones. Dictation software is good for some things, and not so much others.

I hit the wrong buttons all the time. Someone on here, a great guy, mentioned the "swiping" technique of typing but I haven't gotten the hang of that yet.

Travis

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art imitates life... not the other way round.

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John's plots are fine, there isn't anything "screwed up" about them. They're only screwed up if you don't understand them. It's like the answer to the math problem that doesn't look right because you don't understand the equation.

Below is the plot that Bob Crites posted earlier in the thread. On the first sheet, Paul Klipsch had said that "some critics deplore this impedance variation, but there are advantages: the high impedance demands less power from the amplifier in the range where TIM (transient intermodulation distortion) is worst."

Just like John's plots, PK's plots are easy to understand.

This form of distortion still exists, and is largely responsible for why most solid amplifiers don't always sound very good.

Again, take note of the fact that the higher impedance at the higher frequencies places less of a demand on the amplifier.

post-1106-0-44360000-1445958316_thumb.jp

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Dean,

 

Do you personally think it is better to have a speaker that measures all over the place like the plots above or one that is controlled to a narrow range of impedance?

 

I am only interested in your personal opinion.......and why.

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Seems to me that the substance of what this new network has to offer has been lost in the technology of graphs and how they ought to be the detrming factor, factors by which they are to be evaluated. To a certain extent the new vendor has to establish his credentials, and thus will be challanged.

Has any klipsch horn owner been able to understand and have the necessary parts to build and honestly evaluate it's performance biased on usage in their own system, if it doesn't infringe anylaws.

The time that has been spent thus far! far out weights the time it would take to build. And no

Definitive conclusion has been reached. It's great to have options,and that is all that's being offered here.this forum is great that they extend this opportunity for those who are interested in audio sound reproduction,without worrying about how it might affect their bottom line.

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Hi Mark,

You only need to worry about the impedance if it's causing a severe aberration in the response - if it is, then you correct it.

As has been demonstrated over and over again, amplifiers are specifically designed to handle variations in impedance, and the only two things they care about is an impedance that is too low, or one that is running away - other than that, they could care less. When I had VRDs, I ran Type A and Type AA exclusively, while my Universal sat in the closet - I finally stripped it for parts.

Al needs the swamping resistor because he's trying to match the impedance of the high pass to the impedance of the low pass. At audio frequencies, this is completely unnecessary. It works, it sounds fine, but it's not a requirement for audio network design; especially since I can get something that sounds better using less parts.

Like I said earlier, No one else is doing it, though I'm sure the big loudspeaker companies are more than capable of it if they thought it was a game changer. What, Klipsch can't afford a microwave bench tech or engineer to design their networks? The fact that NO ONE is doing it should be a clue telling us that IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST OR ONLY WAY OF DOING THINGS -- yet we are expected to believe that it's the only way, that loudspeaker designers are morons, and exotic programs like LEAP are flawed and not to be trusted. Seriously, it stretches the bounds of incredulity.

John's solution is perfectly acceptable, and if I had the money, it's something I would certainly try. It's a pretty good deal for what he's offering. The only criticism I have is that I think his boards are too small. :-) Anyone considering this setup, should opt for the best parts available.

Edited by Deang

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@Brown. The "new vendor" is not a new vendor, he's been here for years, he's just not as loud as the rest of us. He also has another job, which involves travel. Spare time is spent doing research projects -- so he doesn't spend much time here.

This forum makes up a very small percentage of the work acquired by us vendors.

Keep in mind that this is a product being offered up for sale after hours of research and listening tests. No vendor is obliged to give out their schematics and diagrams. Klipsch and most other companies don't do it either.

As for John's credentials, he has a Masters in Mechanical Engineering and a PhD in Engineering.

Edited by Deang
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As has been demonstrated over and over again, amplifiers are specifically designed to handle variations in impedance,

 

Yes. Audio power amplifiers are essentially voltage sources which aspire to (but don't quite achieve) zero output impedance, and thus deliver power into any impedance. All suspended voice coils are going to have variable reactance with frequency and mechanical resonance. 

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Hi Mark,

You only need to worry about the impedance if it's causing a severe aberration in the response - if it is, then you correct it.

As has been demonstrated over and over again, amplifiers are specifically designed to handle variations in impedance, and the only two things they care about is an impedance that is too low, or one that is running away - other than that, they could care less. When I had VRDs, I ran Type A and Type AA exclusively, while my Universal sat in the closet - I finally stripped it for parts.

Al needs the swamping resistor because he's trying to match the impedance of the high pass to the impedance of the low pass. At audio frequencies, this is completely unnecessary. It works, it sounds fine, but it's not a requirement for audio network design; especially since I can get something that sounds better using less parts.

Like I said earlier, No one else is doing it, though I'm sure the big loudspeaker companies are more than capable of it if they thought it was a game changer. What, Klipsch can't afford a microwave bench tech or engineer to design their networks? The fact that NO ONE is doing it should be a clue telling us that IT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST OR ONLY WAY OF DOING THINGS -- yet we are expected to believe that it's the only way, that loudspeaker designers are morons, and exotic programs like LEAP are flawed and not to be trusted. Seriously, it stretches the bounds of incredulity.

John's solution is perfectly acceptable, and if I had the money, it's something I would certainly try. It's a pretty good deal for what he's offering. The only criticism I have is that I think his boards are too small. :-) Anyone considering this setup, should opt for the best parts available.

 

Last time I looked ALK's had 2 swamping resistors.........at least all of mine do.

 

I actually never tried one of the ALKs without them.  They sound so much better than the originals I just use them as designed.

 

I'm not sure I agree that the amp "doesn't care" if the impedance is all over the place (up to over 70 ohms, there has to be something different in the performance).  I don't know the correct answer to this and I never did a shoot out to try and hear a difference with/without resistor.

 

Either the current goes down or the voltage goes up...........it could matter.  Multiple variables involved.

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It doesn't matter whether you agree or not - that's how it works. If not, then they would have changed the way amplifiers work a long time ago.

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I wasn't disagreeing with how it works.  I get it.

 

I was disagreeing with opinion that it doesn't matter.   :) 

 

Everything matters.........just how much, and when. 

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:mellow:

Edited by jwc

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Al needs the swamping resistor because he's trying to match the impedance of the high pass to the impedance of the low pass. At audio frequencies, this is completely unnecessary. It works, it sounds fine, but it's not a requirement for audio network design; especially since I can get something that sounds better using less parts.

 

I thought this stupidity was done with!

 

This is an example of somebody talking about things he clearly doen't understand!   I thought I tought him better, I suppose not!

 

The resistor is to absorb all the possible impedances created by moving the transfomrer taps to whatever filter it terminates!  Infinity Ohms in parallel with 10 Ohms is 10 Ohms.  This means even an 8 Ohm filter will see no more than 10 Ohms even with the driver completely disconnected. The is only a 1.25:1 missmatch! 

 

Putting the transformer at the source end only continues to be done becasue PWK did that!  He did it becasue the 13 uF of the AA (for example) would be aout 50 uF if it was in a 50 Ohm filter!  In his day a 50 uF cap would be unreasonable.  THE ONLY REASON TO KEEP PUTTING IT AT THE SOURCE END THESE DAYS IS TO JUSTIFY BUILDING OUTMODED DESIGNS!

 

Dean, it's time for you to stick to your day job!

 

Al K.

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Last time I looked ALK's had 2 swamping resistors.........at least all of mine do.

 

Mark,

 

Actually you are correct.  I usually don't talk about this becasue it's just more of the same.   Remember that the K33 is actually 6 Ohms in sereis with 1 mHy voice coil inductance?  Well..  The low crossover (woofer to squawker) is at 6 Ohms. The other networks I offer are 8 Ohms.    By the parallel resistance equation Rt = 1 / (1/r1 + 1/r2))  so, 1/(1/24 + 1/8) = 6 Ohms.  This matches 8 Ohms to 6 Ohms. The other reisitor is 24 Ohms! 

 

AND, I don't want to hear more crap from anybody about reduced efficency!  It is NOT going to run your electric bill up!  The 24 Ohms is a 5W resistor when a 1W would do. Same with the 10 Ohm across the transformer. I use 10W where a 2 W would do nicely. Have you ever heard of any of my networks getting hot!  NO, and you won't!

 

Al K.

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