hcnelly Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) I'm having a big dilemma right now...we are refinishing our basement in the somewhat distant future...We're knocking out a room to make a bigger audio area for myself and future family....I just got married 3 weeks ago I purchased a pair of 1978 Walnut Belles about 6 months ago...with my basement right now, they are 12' apart, and my listening area is 8' away...I power them with either a Scott 340a restored by Craig Ostby, or a marantz 2275 restored by Paul hovenga....I like to alternate between both receivers..the belles sound great with the Scott, bright and listening fatigue with the marantz...Either way, the belles need their crossovers upgraded, as they have lost a lot of their detail and sharpness.... My plan was to upgrade to Dean's or Alk crossovers....I have a Hsu vtf 15h subwoofer to use with the speakers...I was also looking at upgrading the midrange horns to fastrac, to possibly tame some of the harshness.... Well the unthinkable happened...I have an opportunity to purchase oak klipschorns from 1995 locally....klipsch speakers never become available in the area where I live, let alone klipschorns...I plan on listening to them sometime soon..they appear to be in great shape..... Well, my basement isn't finished, and even when it is, I really have no way of knowing how they will sound in my basement...after the renovation, I should have two good corners....the width of the short back wall will be around 14-15'....the listening area will be around 15-17' from the speakers....where the left speaker would be, there's a window 1' from the corner on the long wall....where the right speaker would be, it'll be a long wall with minimal obstructions... Sorry for the long post...I have nice home theater equipment...maybe I could use the belles as surrounds without the upgrade, and the klipschorns as the main speakers...the veneer won't match, and they'll have different crossovers...I know klipschorns are finicky about having solid corners, and big rooms, with nice soundproofing....Right now I have thin walls, and ceilings, and I haven't even heard my belles at the listening distance they'd be at after the renovation Edited October 5, 2015 by hcnelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcnelly Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Would the upgraded belles and sub sound better than the stock klipschorn and sub? I feel like I'm taking a big risk getting the klipschorn either way....for one, I don't currently have the money, but I have plenty of audio gear to sell and purchase the khorns....or the money will go to upgrade the belles, which I already have...I love how the belles sound already, although the bass isn't quite there, but the subwoofer fills that in... I can't imagine how they'd sound with upgraded and new crossovers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 My opinion.... Slow down and re-evaluate. Now that I know what I know (and I've owned Khorns, LaScalas and some others) I'd not do any of the above. 1. Keep your Belle's 2. Buy a pair of K510's 3. Buy an active crossover 4. Biamp them as a 2-way speaker (3 way if you want to integrate your sub) You will be jumping up to a 2" throat horn which will be a substantial upgrade to many of the others. You will also be taking the Belle down to a 2-way which will increase its coherency. Picture attached of what I speak By the way, these are Klipsch parts so all the engineering has been done at their factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Aside from sonics, this seems to be a very rare opportunity to buy K-Horns locally. My guess is that as time passes there might be a collection of buyers should you wish to sell them. Of course I should not pretend to know the future demographics of S.D. WMcD Edited October 5, 2015 by William F. Gil McDermott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I say get the Khorns, use the Belles in their current condition as surrounds. Khorns may never pop up this close to you again. Like WMcD said, you could sell them later if you have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 My opinion: 1. Upgrading the crossovers in the Belle's is not going to greatly improve the bass, pretty much no matter what. They are what they are, just like La Scala's.... 2. Upgrading the crossovers, and upgrading your tweeters will be a significant improvement in the mid and high end, but again, is not going to do much for the bass. 3. Upgrading the crossovers, and upgrading your tweeters, and adding a sub (a proper horn loaded sub), is probably going to get you most of the way there, which may be enough.... 4. Do what Coytee suggests if you think you will like that sonic change, and, that look. (I have absolutely no experience with that, so I don't know, but sure sounds interesting....) 5. No matter what....if you can sell your extra gear, and buy some Khorns locally at a good price, do it. Figure out the rest later. Personally, if I had corners, even with all the other stuff I have, I would buy Khorns. I've experienced them several times, admittedly in very good listening environments, and I was stunned. Again, at a good price, in good condition, a no brainer for me. My opinion...... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcnelly Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 Coytee, thank you so much for your recommendations, I just know that my wife wouldn't approve of how that setup would look....she loves how the belles look....the problem is that I told her the belles would be my last speaker purchase, again, I never expected klipschorns so close....she certainly likes the belles over the khorns aesthetically....I'm just worried that the khorns will sound like shit after the renovation....it'll be very hard to convince the wife to accept another huge set of speakers in our lives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Adding a proper horn loaded sub to your current loudspeakers is going to add the most impact. Crossover update or upgrade can be a great improvement also. The 510 horn is a good one but the 402 is a real gem but oh so big. Dave makes a replacement horn for the Belle, you may want to look into that also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cincymat Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 My opinion.... Slow down and re-evaluate. Now that I know what I know (and I've owned Khorns, LaScalas and some others) I'd not do any of the above. 1. Keep your Belle's 2. Buy a pair of K510's 3. Buy an active crossover 4. Biamp them as a 2-way speaker (3 way if you want to integrate your sub) You will be jumping up to a 2" throat horn which will be a substantial upgrade to many of the others. You will also be taking the Belle down to a 2-way which will increase its coherency. Picture attached of what I speak By the way, these are Klipsch parts so all the engineering has been done at their factory. That is one beautiful Belle. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 You'll be too far back, the imaging will be terrible. There is a reason I know this. Don't buy them unless you're prepared to build a good set of false corners. If you buy them, you'll be happy you bought them, which will last about a day to two before buyer's remorse sets in. There are few things in audio more aggravating than hearing Klipschorns at their worse. You'll need to turn them into the listening area, and point them back into the area where you're sitting, Go to my website and see the picture of my old listening room with my Klipschorns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I would rather have Belles. Lovely speaker. Add a good sub, and enjoy. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 What about getting the k'horns and use the LF section with a 510 or a 402? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcnelly Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 I know what I have with my belles and I love how they look and sound....I can always get a horn loaded woofer down the road, but my Hsu vtf-15h will do fine for now... I see the klipschorns costing a lot of money and hassle down the road...I just want to play music right now and be content with what I already have.khorns seem like a lot of work and frustration to get them sounding right in my basement... So it looks like I'm gonna pass on the khorns, and upgrade the belles...thank you for the comments everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ave Bona Cornwall Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I'd also add that right now, 12' may be too close for Khorns. I know others will disagree. Just my opinion. I don't know how big the area will be after the remodel. I'd stick with the belles for that, and to keep your newly minted marriage on good terms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 You'll be too far back, the imaging will be terrible. There is a reason I know this. Don't buy them unless you're prepared to build a good set of false corners. If you buy them, you'll be happy you bought them, which will last about a day to two before buyer's remorse sets in. There are few things in audio more aggravating than hearing Klipschorns at their worse. You'll need to turn them into the listening area, and point them back into the area where you're sitting, Go to my website and see the picture of my old listening room with my Klipschorns. or change your setting / listening posistion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I know what I have with my belles and I love how they look and sound....I can always get a horn loaded woofer down the road, but my Hsu vtf-15h will do fine for now... I see the klipschorns costing a lot of money and hassle down the road...I just want to play music right now and be content with what I already have.khorns seem like a lot of work and frustration to get them sounding right in my basement... So it looks like I'm gonna pass on the khorns, and upgrade the belles...thank you for the comments everyone Having owned Belles, LaScalas and K-horns, I would be the first to say go for the K's because they are all that even if you don't have great corners, but 12 feet listening distance IMO is just a hair too close. Im at 15 feet and I wouldnt mind being back just a few feet more. You can still enclose the backs of both speakers with a single sheet of 3/4 " ply and get 80-90% out of the bass. Its what I have done and although I would love to have them tucked in corners, toeing them out makes a huge difference in imaging and I couldn't go back to having them at 45 degree angles. Enclosing a set of K's is very simple and its not permanent, just 4 screws per side that go into the tail board brace and the brace for the side grill. Easy Peasy and no cabinet holes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcnelly Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 Damn, I'm looking at the khorns again! I can't make up my mind....I need to measure out the basement again, but I can certainly move my listening area further back, maybe 20'...I'll have to check after work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcnelly Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 Does enclosing the backs of the khorns do away with having to build false corners? I didn't know you could cover them and still get great bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 You still need corners. You'll need to have them at least a foot near the corner. Those look fully modified. They have new horns, new drivers, and new networks. You are ready to go - no fuss, no bother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Does enclosing the backs of the khorns do away with having to build false corners? I didn't know you could cover them and still get great bass Yes it does. I haven't done a cycle sweep since I enclosed them, but I need to. I have several test tones in the upper 30hz and lower 40hz range and they are moving serious air. You get to the lower 30's and the output starts to fall quickly and it turns into motor noise. Its not optimal by any means, but many people that have their K's in real corners not properly tucked and sealed are in worse shape than if they just enclosed them. False walls are a bit better, but to be properly done you need several sheets of 3/4" or 1" ply, 2"X4"s to build a frame etc.etc. and it ends up being a large structure that is very heavy and cumbersome for for moving and staircases. You could downplay this build, but ultimately you would end up with very similar sound only with extended sides to help the lower extension a bit. Im not a K horn guru, but many are here. I can say that very few have enclosed their K's, but many have built false corners. Real corners are always best for the bass, but I cant stand having the music intersect so many feet in front of me and due to the tall height of the K, you really need to be further back unless you sit four feet off the ground. A REALLY wide room (24-25 feet) and a shorter listening distance would put the angle better for the music intersect due to the 45 degree angle of the corners. The additional height of the K does something to the music that I really enjoy, but get too close to them and it heads south. Even if my K's were completely stock, I wouldnt give them up before my LaScalas which I have owned for over 12 years (and still do) or the old Belles I owned many years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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