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Destiny

Powering rf7iis+rc64ii

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Brand new to these forums, i am doing some research for an upcoming semi-home theater project(not building a proper room for it). I have klipsch rb81iis, which i bought specifically because i would build a klispch rf-7ii home theater and these would be the back surrounds. In my country klipsch is readily available so it was an obvious choice as many other brands are not available that easily. Currently using these rb81iis with h/k avr 171 with my computer which has a sony 42" hdtv as monitor.   

  Anyways, i am only thinking of a 3.1 setup as i don't care for surround sound much and just need powerful and awesome sound. What i want to research(reading up a lot about it) is powering the rf7iis and the center rc64ii properly. I am not a speaker expert but have been into the headphone audiophile scene a bit so have slight ideas about what is what. What should i power them with? if i get a reciever like denon 4520(hypothetically), would it be enough to power them properly? rf7iis are rated at 250W and 64ii at 200W rms power. The easiest thing would be to get a good preamp and attach something like emotiva xpa3 with it(even though not available in my country and i would have to import it). But if i go with a flagship avr rather than dedicated power amps, would it be enough for them? of course i would want them at their best. They are supposedly very efficient speakers(even though that might not be entirely true as to how effcient according to klipsch) and even an ordinary avr should get them loud enough. But i am talking about considerable difference(bass amount and dynamics etc) compared to 200w/ch power amps even though you only get a 3db gain by doubling the power. According to soundandvision.com the denon 4520  is

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 172.6 watts
1% distortion at 190.7 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 121.8 watts
1% distortion at 145.3 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 108.8 watts
1% distortion at 121.7 watts

 

i would guess that for 3 channel it should be 140-150W/ch.

 

So my question is that an avr like that could get these speakers to give their best dynamics even when there is grunt work involved for them at lower frequencies? or a power amp would make considerable, or at least, little improvement? I am talking about the bass specifically as these beauties should give me a considerable thump(sub bass can be handled by a subwoofer). Or maybe the avr might not be able to handle those dips in ohms. 140-150W should be more than enough even for hard hitting bass and as something like denon 4520cl is/was a flagship so the quality of power should be good as well. I used to deal with sensitivity on the level of 90db/mW in the headphone world not on the scale of db/W and the obvious solution was to get a power source with some headroom. It is already going to cost me a lot considering that i would have to buy them at higher rates(my location) and backing them up with ups and batteries due to power blackout issues(my location) and i don't even have a display yet which is good enough to complement this setup. I don't know, anyone who knows these speakers, advice me.


 

 

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The easiest thing would be to get a good preamp and attach something like emotiva xpa3 with it(even though not available in my country and i would have to import it).

 

This would yield the best results.  Can you find an amp locally?

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Receivers work fine for the most part at low volume but they struggle at high volume with rock music and crossed over low or ran full range, they don't have the overhead, you can hear it clip during the peaks like kick drums.  Certain full range movie effects just sound nicer on an external amp as well.  

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The easiest thing would be to get a good preamp and attach something like emotiva xpa3 with it(even though not available in my country and i would have to import it).

 

This would yield the best results.  Can you find an amp locally?

 

ofcourse i can... nad and rotel brands are easily available and many others too... but not the less expensive varieties like emotiva... which i can import ofcourse... the thing i find better in power amps is that they can be really good when the speakers dip to something like 4ohms(does that happen when lower frequencies are on? i don't really now)...

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Receivers work fine for the most part at low volume but they struggle at high volume with rock music and crossed over low or ran full range, they don't have the overhead, you can hear it clip during the peaks like kick drums.  Certain full range movie effects just sound nicer on an external amp as well.  

 

I agree to that as that is true for even headphones... headroom is neccessary... but what i wanted to know was that even with such high end receivers, their amps aren't good enough yet? maybe power amps is the best way to go then... a flagship reciver vs an okayish avr+power amps...

Edited by Destiny

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Look at my sig. I have the 4520 powering the 7's, 64, and 62's and it does a fine job in my small room. If I bumped up to seven speakers and a larger room then I would get an external amp but for now....nah. Although I still want to try an amp and actually see for myself what the improvement if any would bring. It's just not a priority right now.

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I'm with Coleman.  Over the past several years, I've owned several amps (200+ watts/ch).  A quality receiver will power the RF-7ii / RC-64ii / RS-62 just fine.  When I added a pair of RB-35 to make it a 7.1 system, the receiver quickly ran out of gas.  

 

For your setup, a quality receiver will sound great, especially since it's only having to drive 3 speakers.  However, in my limited experience, adding a quality dedicated amp provided better bottom end, more headroom and better separation of sound.  When I added my first power amp, a Parasound HCA2205 (220 x 5 amp) to my previous RF-83 system, I did hear a difference...but it wasn't night and day.  I wrote my thoughts about it in the First impressions of the Parasound HCA2205a Amp thread.

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Welcome Destiny, you have gotten good advice, and more will come. Will you be doing any 2 channel listening? I say get a pre and an amp and let them babies sing :D

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AVR's can fall short but, flagship avr's are a different story.  Also, room size makes a difference.  I would think the Denon is most likely swing over 200 watts at 4 ohms for impedance dips.  There is a great chance that if the room is not hughe, the Denon will be more than enough.  Some of the flagship avrs like Pioneer have discrete amps for the various channel and there is not a large power suckout during peaks/dynamics. 

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Receivers work fine for the most part at low volume but they struggle at high volume with rock music and crossed over low or ran full range, they don't have the overhead, you can hear it clip during the peaks like kick drums.  Certain full range movie effects just sound nicer on an external amp as well.  

 

what i wanted to know was that even with such high end receivers, their amps aren't good enough yet?

 

 

What I described was my experience with a $2,000 Marantz SR-7009 on these same speakers.  Denon is a little more powerful on the amps but you'd still be better off with an external amp.  Again, it's really only an issue with high volume, bass heavy stuff, crossed over low or ran full range.  Otherwise I'm perfectly fine with my receiver and a 4520 is more powerful.  

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I am like others and use my speaker with a sub.  This way, headroom is increased and the 7's shine doing low bass and up.  Currently things a XO at 50 Hz and speakers set to small.  I never feel anything is lacking for 2 channel or multichannel.  This RF 7's since they are in control down to 50 Hz and the avr has an extra 5-6 db's for additional head due to the subs handling the low end.  This makes for an excellent midrange and Hi's.

Edited by derrickdj1

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I'm with Coleman.  Over the past several years, I've owned several amps (200+ watts/ch).  A quality receiver will power the RF-7ii / RC-64ii / RS-62 just fine.  When I added a pair of RB-35 to make it a 7.1 system, the receiver quickly ran out of gas.  

 

For your setup, a quality receiver will sound great, especially since it's only having to drive 3 speakers.  However, in my limited experience, adding a quality dedicated amp provided better bottom end, more headroom and better separation of sound.  When I added my first power amp, a Parasound HCA2205 (220 x 5 amp) to my previous RF-83 system, I did hear a difference...but it wasn't night and day.  I wrote my thoughts about it in the First impressions of the Parasound HCA2205a Amp thread.

If it is not a night and day difference(especially with a powerful receiver), especially in the bottom end then it is better/more feasible to get a single unit than multiple ones for me. I am sure i will be satisfied. especially not knowing what i am missing...

 

How big is the room and will you be using a subwoofer?

 

it is 15x17 feet... not big. I will use a sub, if i find a good one... but i have the itch to push the rf7 iis before i get a sub, to see what they can do... i am more concerned about the mid bass slam as the sub will cover the sub bass region...

Welcome Destiny, you have gotten good advice, and more will come. Will you be doing any 2 channel listening? I say get a pre and an amp and let them babies sing :D

 

i used to do a lot of music listening on my headphones, but i don't get the time nowadays to do much music listening, only occasionally... i am most probably going to get an amp if i am itching too much to get the best out of the speakers....

 

 

Receivers work fine for the most part at low volume but they struggle at high volume with rock music and crossed over low or ran full range, they don't have the overhead, you can hear it clip during the peaks like kick drums.  Certain full range movie effects just sound nicer on an external amp as well.  

 

what i wanted to know was that even with such high end receivers, their amps aren't good enough yet?

 

 

What I described was my experience with a $2,000 Marantz SR-7009 on these same speakers.  Denon is a little more powerful on the amps but you'd still be better off with an external amp.  Again, it's really only an issue with high volume, bass heavy stuff, crossed over low or ran full range.  Otherwise I'm perfectly fine with my receiver and a 4520 is more powerful.  

 

 

i am only concerned about the bass ofcourse... mostly the mid bass slam as the sub can cover the below 50-60hz range even if these speakers are rated to 30hz...

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Outlaw 7500, I love it. Same amp as the ATI2005 for a lot less...

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Try with receiver... Then if you feel it is lacking you can always add an amp.

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I'm with Coleman.  Over the past several years, I've owned several amps (200+ watts/ch).  A quality receiver will power the RF-7ii / RC-64ii / RS-62 just fine.  When I added a pair of RB-35 to make it a 7.1 system, the receiver quickly ran out of gas.  

 

For your setup, a quality receiver will sound great, especially since it's only having to drive 3 speakers.  However, in my limited experience, adding a quality dedicated amp provided better bottom end, more headroom and better separation of sound.  When I added my first power amp, a Parasound HCA2205 (220 x 5 amp) to my previous RF-83 system, I did hear a difference...but it wasn't night and day.  I wrote my thoughts about it in the First impressions of the Parasound HCA2205a Amp thread.

+1 I have a Pioneer Elite (VSX 53) and it does a great job but when the volume is really up, the amp definitely makes a difference.  (I have the Emotiva XPA 5).  You are going to be happy regardless!  Enjoy! 

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Destiny,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

You have been given solid advice so far and I am sure more will chime in and add to what has been said.

 

I completely understand the wanting an outboard amp thing and I am all about that.

 

The mentioned Denon AVR-4520CI is a solid receiver and is very capable of driving your 3.1 system.  On the other hand, a quality AVR/amp or preamp-processor and amp combo will have an easier time with the task, especially in the midbass region.  More times than not, a preamp/amp combo will outshine an AVR in just about every situation.

 

Bill

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Try with receiver... Then if you feel it is lacking you can always add an amp.

 

That too. :D

 

Bill

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Destiny,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

You have been given solid advice so far and I am sure more will chime in and add to what has been said.

 

I completely understand the wanting an outboard amp thing and I am all about that.

 

The mentioned Denon AVR-4520CI is a solid receiver and is very capable of driving your 3.1 system.  On the other hand, a quality AVR/amp or preamp-processor and amp combo will have an easier time with the task, especially in the midbass region.  More times than not, a preamp/amp combo will outshine an AVR in just about every situation.

 

Bill

 

i am thinking that if i go all out on spending this much then why not do it proper and get the amp.... even if i am sure i will never push them to reference levels...

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Quite honestly it comes down to want vs need. Do you need the amp? Most likely not. Do you want it and will it bother you not to have it...that's for you to decide.

I'm pushing 7 channels with the 4520 right now and I don't feel it's missing anything. But, that's me...

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