What is with the audiophile horn hate?

[cradeldorf]

Horns amplify because they are designed to amplify, build a horn with a different curve on every side and it will still be a horn but it will not amplify. They sound clearer because they prohibit the sound from going in other directions and creating reflections. It's just that simple. I have gone over to cone speakers myself because I don't need concert levels in my tiny living room. they're cool to impress your friends but after your done doing that... I mean who's gonna listen to a movie soundtrack at 100db's?

[ChuckAb3]

There seems to be a 'pack' mentality among certain groups of 'audiophiles' in which one has to own certain brands of often very expensive cone speakers. One must also hate horn loaded speakers in order to be accepted. I particulary noticed this rather stupid mentality on another forum (which begins with the letter 'A' and ends with 'gon') a couple of years back. Nasty, nasty comments and debates.

 

I'm a musician too and have always valued a good horn loaded system as the closest to live music one can get. I've also heard some of the officially approved 'audiophile' cone speakers and consider most of them so laid back as to be muted and unacceptable to me, especially for the price.  There are exceptions, I'm sure, but why mess with it when a good Heritage system delivers the goods? That's just me and my taste.

 

I've sometimes wondered how many 'audiophile' horn haters would say that they like the sound of a classic Hammond organ on their rock, rock 'n roll or other pop music without relalizing it's coming through a mic'ed up Leslie tone cabinet which is ..... a horn loaded speaker. (Check out some early Santana).

[Jim Naseum]

And let's face it, most great jazz players blow horns, not cones.

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[ChuckAb3]

And let's face it, most great jazz players blow horns, not cones.

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Yup. And...I completely forgot to mention all the classic blues and jazz groups and recordings which incorporate the organ as one of the instruments. It's almost always a Hammond B-3 and almost always horn loaded Leslie. I hate even the idea of playing my B through anything else.

[Sprags]

I've owned DCM TimeWindows that I purchased new in 1978. And a Bose 5.2 system that I purchased in 1994. I think the Bose made me lose interest in enjoying music at home.

Since renewing my interest in music and hifi equipment that was rekindled when I purchased a tube amp back in 2012 I have acquired 3 pairs of what are considered audiophile quality speakers to me. The first are Polk Audio LSiM 703's, the second are JBL L100T3's and the third are custom 'Heresy' speakers that were build by another member.

To me all three speakers sound good...but different. When I first got the custom 'Heresy's' I thought they didn't sound that good ...but not because they sounded hornlike or shrill. I thought they sounded kind of dull. But after breaking in for 30 or 40 hours the Heresy's seemed to become three dimensional and much smoother sounding than the other speakers I have. To me horns sound much more natural and less analytical.

As I said...I got back into hifi so I could enjoy music. A sound that is not as straining is a sound that makes listening less stressful and something I can do for hours.

I'm glad I found horns. They sound so much better to me.

[Quiet_Hollow]

I'll just add:

 

1. I believe that horns can be a polarizing ownership experience because they do not reward someone in any way for making seemingly minor placement or setup errors. If there are any problems up stream in the signal chain, they'll simply pass that along. Likewise, if there's a reflective surface too close to the speaker or listener, it'll be perceptible in spades. Their dispersion characteristics and passband restrictions demand some respect. Too much EQ or not enough? Same thing. They're extremely fussy like that. Arguably too easy to make sound bad, especially the poor designs. Not plug-and-play IME, and that's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

Good horn ownership starts by knowing that there's already amazing sound in the design, but it has to be unlocked through proper execution...which, to the chagrin of many, isn't a financial matter.

 

Then there's the issue of space.

 

2. Nothing does dynamics like horns do. The difference is felt, not heard. Very real. You feel it, even at low volume. Makes listening a "tactile" experience, not just an immersive one.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Quiet_Hollow

[twk123]

I'll just add:

 

1. I believe that horns can be a polarizing ownership experience because they do not reward someone in any way for making seemingly minor placement or setup errors. If there are any problems up stream in the signal chain, they'll simply pass that along. Likewise, if there's a reflective surface too close to the speaker or listener, it'll be perceptible in spades. Their dispersion characteristics and passbands restrictions demand some respect. Too much EQ or not enough? Same thing. They're extremely fussy like that. Arguably too easy to make sound bad, especially the poor designs. Not plug-and-play IME, and that's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

Good horn ownership starts by knowing that there's already amazing sound in the design, but it has to be unlocked through proper execution...which, to the chagrin of many, isn't a financial matter.

 

Then there's the issue of space.

 

2. Nothing does dynamics like horns do. The difference is felt, not heard. Very real. You feel it. Makes listening a "tactile" experience, not just an immersive one.

 

I know what you mean on the reflections. I will start noticing a near field reflection by muddled vocal then have to pause everything and start hanging towels or drapes on the wall etc (I even used a couch cushion) until it sounds right. Although my wife isnt exactly humored when she walks into the room the next morning with a bath towel tacked to the wall...

[Max2]

From Randy Bankert

 

 

Drawbacks Of Conventional
Direct Radiator Loudspeaker Designs

 

While horns offer a dramatic increase in dynamic capability, image size, and presence, with harmonic distortion less than one quarter of the value found in audiophile direct radiator systems, most direct radiators severely compress dynamic contrasts and reduce image size. In addition, many direct radiator designs suffer from dynamic compression coloration, where the highs and lows are rolled off at high SPL's, resulting in a perceived midrange boost. Many direct radiator designs are not efficient enough to be used with low-powered single-ended triodes, and even with high-wattage and high-current amplification, these loudspeakers sound polite and uninvolving compared to high efficiency loudspeakers. Single-ended tube amplifiers need not apply, for obvious reasons (low wattage).

 

Special Qualities Of Horns

 

What special qualities do horns have that endear them to enthusiasts besides having very high efficiencies? The horn may be viewed as an acoustic impedance transformer. When a diaphragm vibrates, pressure waves are created in front of it. This is the sound we hear. Coupling the motion of the diaphragm to the air is not an easy thing to do due to the very different densities of the vibrating diaphragm and air. This can be viewed as an impedance mismatch. We all know that sound travels better in high density materials than in low density materials, and in a speaker system, the diaphragm is the high density (high impedance) medium and air is the low density (low impedance) medium. The horn assists the solid-air impedance transformation by acting as an intermediate transition medium. In other words, it creates a higher acoustic impedance for the transducer to work into, thus allowing more power to be transferred to the air.

A horn is a tube whose cross-section increases exponentially. The narrow end is called the throat and the wide end is called the mouth. The transducer is placed at the throat. When the diaphragm moves near the throat, we have a high pressure with a small amplitude in a small area. As the pressure wave moves towards the mouth, the pressure decreases and the amplitude increases.

 

Excellent natural efficient amplification.

 

 

As mentioned earlier, horns have very special properties, including lower distortion than conventional drivers, faster transient response than conventional drivers, and are easier to drive at high SPL's than conventional drivers.

 

Lower distortion at a given SPL: For an equivalent SPL, horns require a smaller diaphragm, and since distortion is directly proportional to the size of the diaphragm, a large diaphragm electromechanical transducer (conventional driver) has to move much more than a horned diaphragm in order to create the same SPL (sound pressure level). The larger the excursion, the worse the distortion. So, for a given SPL, a horn loaded system will generate much lower distortion than an electromechanical transducer.

 

Faster transient response: Since the diaphragm is smaller, it is lighter and thus it accelerates and decelerates faster. This, in the real world means superb, fast snappy transients. As the excursion of the diaphragm is very small as compared to an electromechanical transducer, the voice coil is much smaller and again, this translates to a lower moving mass and again, results in fast transients.

 

Higher SPL's with a given input wattage: Small voice coils also take full advantage of the flux in the pole piece gap. This increases the efficiency of the transducer allowing the amplifier to work with greater ease. Since the amplifier has more headroom and the driver handles peaks and high outputs more efficiently, horns are able to produce much higher SPL's before they distort.

Thus, in the normal operating range, horn designs are faster, more dynamic, have a better transient response, have less distortion, and are easier for an amplifier to drive than conventional driver designs.

 

Horns Have Impact!

You feel the music, you become part of the music, and the music becomes part of you. The full-range phase coherent wave front of horns produces a solid image and presentation, as opposed to the phase impaired, smeared, and diluted imaging of typical low efficiency conventional driver designs. Horns will never sound veiled or compressed. The performers will be there, in your room, performing for you in the same way and location as the original recording venue. If the performer was six feet from the microphone during the recording session, he will be six feet away from you when the performance is reproduced through your system, not fifteen feet behind the speakers. Why would one want the performers to be fifteen feet behind the speakers if that was not how the material was recorded? We want the performers to be in the same room we are in, in front of us, so that we can feel the music, front row center.

Due to their inherent benefits of low distortion, high efficiency, fast and accurate transient response, and wide dynamic range, horn loudspeakers provide a pure, un-adulterated musical presentation, a more organic and natural recreation of the acoustic event. As a result, each different musical selection is portrayed with its own character and life, not that of the playback medium.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Max2

[Islander]

Many of the horn haters are just repeating what they were told by someone, and have never actually heard a well-set-up horn-loaded system.

 

There is a similar prejudice against direct drive turntables.  In that case, there is the suspicion of a profit motive, because direct-drive turntables can be expensive to produce, while simple belt drive turntables can be cheaply made from a slab of MDF, an inexpensive motor and platter, and a set of rubber knobs for feet. 

 

Throw in a generic tonearm, a power supply and a rubber band, and you're all set.  Pick a price that bears little relationship to the hardware or engineering involved, and now you have an "audiophile" turntable that must sound better than those direct drive "DJ" turntables, right?

 

I'll refrain from taking off on a rant, because this thread is not about turntables, but I'm sure you've heard much of this elsewhere as well.

[MyOwn]

I've owned DCM TimeWindows that I purchased new in 1978. And a Bose 5.2 system that I purchased in 1994. I think the Bose made me lose interest in enjoying music at home.

Since renewing my interest in music and hifi equipment that was rekindled when I purchased a tube amp back in 2012 I have acquired 3 pairs of what are considered audiophile quality speakers to me. The first are Polk Audio LSiM 703's, the second are JBL L100T3's and the third are custom 'Heresy' speakers that were build by another member.

To me all three speakers sound good...but different. When I first got the custom 'Heresy's' I thought they didn't sound that good ...but not because they sounded hornlike or shrill. I thought they sounded kind of dull. But after breaking in for 30 or 40 hours the Heresy's seemed to become three dimensional and much smoother sounding than the other speakers I have. To me horns sound much more natural and less analytical.

As I said...I got back into hifi so I could enjoy music. A sound that is not as straining is a sound that makes listening less stressful and something I can do for hours.

I'm glad I found horns. They sound so much better to me.

My brother turned me on to audio at a young age. I can remeber him doing tube equipment at home with used equipment from a church...Anyway he took me to his buddies house, in hand I had a new Kansas Album "Leftoverture" heard it alot at home on a record player....

DCM Timewindows were playing...

There was a turn table , Bang and Olufsen, the speakers, DCM Timewindows and some piece of DBX equipment that I remember, Im not sure about a preamp / poweramp......

I can say this....That is the moment in my life I understood Sound can get Better and Better with the right equipment

[Sprags]

I had a Yamaha CR-2020 receiver driving the TimeWindows... Now I have a Yamaha CR-2010 driving one of the pairs of speakers I own. I also have a McIntosh MC2105/C36 for the JBL's.

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[oldtimer]

 

I've owned DCM TimeWindows that I purchased new in 1978. And a Bose 5.2 system that I purchased in 1994. I think the Bose made me lose interest in enjoying music at home.

Since renewing my interest in music and hifi equipment that was rekindled when I purchased a tube amp back in 2012 I have acquired 3 pairs of what are considered audiophile quality speakers to me. The first are Polk Audio LSiM 703's, the second are JBL L100T3's and the third are custom 'Heresy' speakers that were build by another member.

To me all three speakers sound good...but different. When I first got the custom 'Heresy's' I thought they didn't sound that good ...but not because they sounded hornlike or shrill. I thought they sounded kind of dull. But after breaking in for 30 or 40 hours the Heresy's seemed to become three dimensional and much smoother sounding than the other speakers I have. To me horns sound much more natural and less analytical.

As I said...I got back into hifi so I could enjoy music. A sound that is not as straining is a sound that makes listening less stressful and something I can do for hours.

I'm glad I found horns. They sound so much better to me.

My brother turned me on to audio at a young age. I can remeber him doing tube equipment at home with used equipment from a church...Anyway he took me to his buddies house, in hand I had a new Kansas Album "Leftoverture" heard it alot at home on a record player....

DCM Timewindows were playing...

There was a turn table , Bang and Olufsen, the speakers, DCM Timewindows and some piece of DBX equipment that I remember, Im not sure about a preamp / poweramp......

I can say this....That is the moment in my life I understood Sound can get Better and Better with the right equipment

 

All in all it's just dust in the wind.  Even though that's not on the lp.

Edited October 21, 2015 by oldtimer

[garyrc]

Do things have to reach a certain price point to be considered good?

 

I worked in a place once where the owner raised the prices so that people thought they must be getting better quality because the prices were so high.

 

The uncle of a grad student I knew ran a luxury limousine touring service.  The tours were offered at several price points.  The most expensive, highest status one was given a name composed of a combination of syllables from different languages.  I don't think anyone ever asked the meaning of the name.  What it actually meant was "**** 'em good and deep."

Edited October 21, 2015 by garyrc

[garyrc]

. I mean who's gonna listen to a movie soundtrack at 100db's?

 

I often run movies at about 5 dB below calibrated reference level, which would produce full scale through each of the front speakers at the 100 dB you mentioned.  They usually sound great!  In a movie theater, 105 fs is used for the main channels, and horn speakers are almost always used for midrange and treble.  They, too, almost always sound great!

[Islander]

Some people are convinced you can't get quality if you're not spending a lot of money.  In certain market segments, the Klipschorn was seen as a cheap speaker, no matter how good it sounded.  Those wealthy buyers would not want to admit to spending so little on their speakers.

 

Klipsch realized this and introduced the Palladium series, great-sounding and great-looking speakers with price tags that status-obsessed types could brag about.  The higher price became a selling point.

 

I don't think any of the forum members who own Palladiums fall into that group, they just really like the sound and look of them and are willing to pay the price. 

 

 

A sort of similar thing happened with BMW about thirty years ago.  Due to currency fluctuations, they would have to raise the prices of their cars and motorcycles about twenty percent (these figures are approximate, since it was a long time ago), which would hurt sales.  One of the executives said, "Instead, let's raise the prices 40% and go after a different market segment."

 

It worked.  BMW went from being seen as a slightly premium brand to being a luxury brand, and their sales increased, in spite of the price increase.

 

 

These types of products can be seen as Veblen goods:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

[garyrc]

Thanks to the electrical engineering prof who owned the hi-fi shop in the town where I went to college!!!!

 

There were three hi-fi shops in Berkeley and Oakland that were run by engineers.  All carried horn loudspeakers.

[Ceptorman]

Some people are convinced you can't get quality if you're not spending a lot of money.  In certain market segments, the Klipschorn was seen as a cheap speaker, no matter how good it sounded.  Those wealthy buyers would not want to admit to spending so little on their speakers.

 

Klipsch realized this and introduced the Palladium series, great-sounding and great-looking speakers with price tags that status-obsessed types could brag about.  The higher price became a selling point.

 

I don't think any of the forum members who own Palladiums fall into that group, they just really like the sound and look of them and are willing to pay the price. 

 

 

A sort of similar thing happened with BMW about thirty years ago.  Due to currency fluctuations, they would have to raise the prices of their cars and motorcycles about twenty percent (these figures are approximate, since it was a long time ago), which would hurt sales.  One of the executives said, "Instead, let's raise the prices 40% and go after a different market segment."

 

It worked.  BMW went from being seen as a slightly premium brand to being a luxury brand, and their sales increased, in spite of the price increase.

 

 

These types of products can be seen as Veblen goods:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

Great post Pat…good info.

[twk123]

Some people are convinced you can't get quality if you're not spending a lot of money.  In certain market segments, the Klipschorn was seen as a cheap speaker, no matter how good it sounded.  Those wealthy buyers would not want to admit to spending so little on their speakers.

 

Klipsch realized this and introduced the Palladium series, great-sounding and great-looking speakers with price tags that status-obsessed types could brag about.  The higher price became a selling point.

 

I don't think any of the forum members who own Palladiums fall into that group, they just really like the sound and look of them and are willing to pay the price. 

 

 

A sort of similar thing happened with BMW about thirty years ago.  Due to currency fluctuations, they would have to raise the prices of their cars and motorcycles about twenty percent (these figures are approximate, since it was a long time ago), which would hurt sales.  One of the executives said, "Instead, let's raise the prices 40% and go after a different market segment."

 

It worked.  BMW went from being seen as a slightly premium brand to being a luxury brand, and their sales increased, in spite of the price increase.

 

 

These types of products can be seen as Veblen goods:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

 

The most ridiculous thing is, BMW even uses direct radiator speakers to pipe in fake engine noise...

 

http://www.cnet.com/news/bmw-m5-generates-fake-engine-noise-using-stereo/

[Quiet_Hollow]

One thing is for sure....Pentatonix sure sounds good over a pair of horns.

[Islander]

 

 

A sort of similar thing happened with BMW about thirty years ago.  Due to currency fluctuations, they would have to raise the prices of their cars and motorcycles about twenty percent (these figures are approximate, since it was a long time ago), which would hurt sales.  One of the executives said, "Instead, let's raise the prices 40% and go after a different market segment."

 

It worked.  BMW went from being seen as a slightly premium brand to being a luxury brand, and their sales increased, in spite of the price increase.

 

 

These types of products can be seen as Veblen goods:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

 

The most ridiculous thing is, BMW even uses direct radiator speakers to pipe in fake engine noise...

 

http://www.cnet.com/news/bmw-m5-generates-fake-engine-noise-using-stereo/

 

 

"Enhanced engine sound" is not a BMW exclusive, it's actually a trend these days.  It's been around since at least 2012.  Porsche, Lexus, VW, and even the Mustang Boss 302 have features to alter the engine sound.

 

It took only seconds to find articles about it:

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound-enhancement-explained-tech-dept

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/americas-best-selling-cars-and-trucks-are-built-on-lies-the-rise-of-fake-engine-noise/2015/01/21/6db09a10-a0ba-11e4-b146-577832eafcb4_story.html

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a7923/the-rise-of-the-fake-engine-roar-11291754/

 

This article has more technical info on certain models:

 

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/5-ways-that-manufacturers-enhance-the-sound-of-their-cars/

 

One last one:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/23/fake-engine-sounds-car_n_6533596.html